Hutchinsons statement....

[Wickerman]

My issue here, specifically, is the idea of a teenage Hutchinson as a prospective prostitute's customer, scouting for nookie at 2 o'clock on a drizzly morning. For me, it's a scenario that doesn't compute.

Oops, I did mean to ask, what makes you think it was Hutchinson who was out looking for nookie at 2 O'clock?, if you recall he said he had nowhere to sleep, so he was just walking the streets, and bumped into Mary Kelly.

It was Kelly who was out looking for customers.

[Sam Flynn]

Something tells me you have not read William Fishman's, East End 1888.

Try it. you might like it.

Oh, I have, Jon, and I love it.

(The book, I mean )

I can't imagine you holding such classic 'modern' opinions if you had.

I'm not projecting values, as such. I just find it the idea that a young man was out at 2AM scouting for girls too "convenient". By all means accept his story that he had no crib for a bed, if you like, but I find that rather too convenient also.

Either way, he could have ended up with someone like Mrs "wretched specimen of East End womanhood" Cox; I'm sure she'd have put him up for less than sixpence. Instead, it was Hutchinson's immense good fortune to encounter the attractive Mary Kelly just before the very moment in which she met her putative killer... again, rather convenient all round.

[Wickerman]

My issue is that. If he was only a teenager, where did he come by his military bearing? Seems a bit young to have served much time in the forces.

Sorry Joshua, I just repeated a point you already made (that he wasn't looking for nookie).

A few months, or a year is all you need to have 'tidyness' drummed into you after obtaining the Queens shilling.
Assuming, that is what was meant.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well I never.

I've just been reading through the thread and I kept thinking that I've been missing something for all these years. Hutchinson, a teenager! To be honest, I always had it in my mind that he was around 25; don't know why? He was actually 22! I'm glad that you lot are paying attention. You live and learn.

It really does sound to me that he had a bit of a thing for MJK. He'd given her money in the past (although we only have his word for that.) And obviously there's the loitering around her gaff at 2am bit. Now that I'm considering his age I'm seeing him as a sort of 'puppy dog' that MJK might have humoured. She may actually have been fond of him.
If he saw himself as a bit of a 'protector,' this may e plain why he took so long to go to the police? Maybe he just felt that he'd failed her and that it was his fault that she was dead?
Regards
HS

[Joshua Rogan]

We only have his word for that.Not sure where the "military bearing" description comes from. I've looked for a contemporary source, but can't find it - perhaps someone else has the source to hand?

Times 13th Nov
"The police yesterday evening received an important piece of information. A man, apparently of the labouring class, with a military appearance, who knew the deceased, stated that..."

Of course, that's only one reporter's impression, but I think it's about as close to a description of him that there is.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Does anyone think that Hutchinson's age might have influenced his description of Astrakhan Man? No doubt someone living in that environment would have had to grow up quickly but still. Our life experiences do often influence our judgments. It's only a 'maybe' but I wonder if seeing someone 'slightly better off' could have been exaggerated by a 22 year old to give the impression of someone 'much better off?' It's not a particularly important point but I just wondered if his age/inexperience led to a view of a man dressed in finery when AM was actually something like a shopkeeper in his Sunday best?
Regards
HS

[Herlock Sholmes]

I recall the 'military bearing' description but I thought that I'd confused it with the description of 'The Pensioner,' connected to Annie Chapman.
HS

[Joshua Rogan]

Sorry Joshua, I just repeated a point you already made (that he wasn't looking for nookie).

No worries Jon. As Sam says, we only have his word for that. But since so much of his story is uncorroborated, if we don't accept his word then we're left with nothing but speculation.

A few months, or a year is all you need to have 'tidyness' drummed into you after obtaining the Queens shilling.
Assuming, that is what was meant.

No doubt you're right. I misremembered the description, it was military appearance rather than bearing. I don't think he was wearing a uniform. Maybe it just meant that he had one of those mustaches that seem so popular in the army photos of the time? Or maybe he snapped to attention when the reporter spoke to him.

[Wickerman]

Times 13th Nov
"The police yesterday evening received an important piece of information. A man, apparently of the labouring class, with a military appearance, who knew the deceased, stated that..."

Of course, that's only one reporter's impression, but I think it's about as close to a description of him that there is.

Yes, but 'military appearance' is just an opinion presumably concerning his neat and tidy look. A stable cannot employ a scruffy Groom either. Being smart and well kept is also a requirement by an owner of stables. The Groom is expected to wander among the Gentry and show the owners horses.
It isn't necessarily an indication of his being in the service.

[Joshua Rogan]

I just find it the idea that a young man was out at 2AM scouting for girls too "convenient". By all means accept his story that he had no crib for a bed, if you like, but I find that rather too convenient also.

Either way, he could have ended up with someone like Mrs "wretched specimen of East End womanhood" Cox; I'm sure she'd have put him up for less than sixpence. Instead, it was Hutchinson's immense good fortune to encounter the attractive Mary Kelly just before the very moment in which she met her putative killer... again, rather convenient all round.

It would have been a lot more convenient for Hutch if he'd had a sixpence in his pocket. It would also be a lot more "convenient" if she was a stranger to him, people tend to interact more with people they pass on the street if they know each other.
Does Hutchinson ever say how well he and Kelly were acquainted, other than he "knew" her (in the biblical sense?)? They may have been good friends, former lovers, on first name or merely nodding terms....for all we know he knew her only as that Kelly woman who was always cadging money from him on the street.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Kelly's rent was 4/6d a week, is it not possible, that she was told by her landlord that she had to pay that amount by Friday Morning , or else .
She had been seen with a well dressed man earlier that evening, maybe he had paid her Four shillings, and she needed sixpence, hence her request to Hutchinson.?
Regards Richard.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Wasn't Kelly massively in arrears? Would such a tiny amount have made a difference?

HS

[Sam Flynn]

Wasn't Kelly massively in arrears? Would such a tiny amount have made a difference?

Hardly. Besides, it seems such an odd amount to ask for at 2 in the morning. Another oddity in Hutchinson's story?

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi,
Kelly's rent was 4/6d a week, is it not possible, that she was told by her landlord that she had to pay that amount by Friday Morning , or else .
She had been seen with a well dressed man earlier that evening, maybe he had paid her Four shillings, and she needed sixpence, hence her request to Hutchinson.?
Regards Richard.

Quite possible, although I don't dare ask how she got 4 shillings out of one man! He may just have been a generous friend, of course. But more likely, I think, that sixpence was either the going rate, or all she thought Huch was good for.

There's always the slight possibility that for all we know she had saved up the entire arrears (about six weeks worth) in a ginger beer bottle, but her killer pcketed it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I thought so. She was 29s in arrears so the amount that she asked for would have been a drop in the ocean. I always wondered why McCarthy allowed such a debt?

Regards

HS