Duke of Bedford

[Mayerling]

Thanks Robert, I knew there was an earlier thread on the earlier website, and I see I was on it towards the end.

Jeff

[SuspectZero]

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4924/6487.html

Ok. That's great, but what else do we know of him? He was at Manor House in the 1880's. That's several years before he died in 1893.

[DJA]

Oddly enough, Lord Bertram was a member of the Bloomsbery group of intellectuals and artists (Lytton Strachey, Maynard Keynes, Duncan Grant) that included Virginia Woolf, a cousin of another Ripper suspect - James Kenneth Stephen. And James Kenneth's father, Sir James Fitzjames Stephen, was the trial judge in the trial of Florence Maybrick for the poison murder (if it was a murder) of James Maybrick (also a suspect).

Jeff

Thomas Stevenson was the toxicologist in the the Maybrick,George Chapman and Pimlico Case.

Was a lot closer to Jack the Ripper than most.

[Errata]

Ok. So now I'm a little confused...

I'm combing through the Russell family, and I'm using Wikipedia because I lent out my Big Book of Everything to my old Entertainment director, and my Russell family files were in that. So Mea Culpa up front.

In the thread DJA posted, there is a photograph conveniently labeled that "Willy" went permanently insane in 1874. SO it seems natural to comb through the family to try and find said "Willy".

Now the guy named William was the 8th Duke of Bedford. He was a shut-in, and generally infirm. Shut-ins are very good candidates for mental illness. But he died in 1872. So not our guy.

The 10th Duke of Bedford was a George William Francis Sackville Russell, so he could be a "Willy" and he would have been 30 ish in 1873. Of course he graduated from Oxford 1874, and married in 1876, neither activities enjoyed by the permanently insane. He was also a member of parliament for about 10 years during this period, but I imagine someone could pull that off and be mad at the same time if one worked really hard at it. He was High Sherriff in 1889, and Deputy Lieutenant, and as an American I don't know precisely what those jobs entail, so it could have been a photo op or a real job, and I wouldn't know either way. They sound important.

But I don't think this was "off his noggin Willy" either. Despite the fact his father shot himself, which is usually a good indication that mental illness runs in the family. Except in this case a high fever was involved so his father wasn't mad, he just had febrile delusions. Which happens. There is no truer saying than what my nurse told me when I had a terrible infection. "Everyone's gotta go somewhere in a hurry when they have a high fever." I watched it. Every patient in my ward lurched up at some point to go somewhere... from home to the last show of the circus. We all had to go somewhere, right at that moment. Nothing else would do. So imagine how powerful a full delusion can be.

Bertrand Russell's uncle Willy had to be George Gilbert William Russell (1848-1933). Lord John Russell's second son, and apparently not noteworthy enough to get a Wikipedia article. He would have been 36 when declared insane in 1874? Which would have made him 50 in 1888, putting him a bit on the old side to be the Ripper, but it would not rule him out. the question is the if he was permanently insane, and there are at least some kind of asylum records, then how was he out and about to be the Ripper?

But I don't think the mad Russell was the 10th duke. I think it was his uncle.

[DJA]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Dukes_of_Bedford

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Arthur_Russell

[SuspectZero]

Ok. So now I'm a little confused...

I'm combing through the Russell family, and I'm using Wikipedia because I lent out my Big Book of Everything to my old Entertainment director, and my Russell family files were in that. So Mea Culpa up front.

In the thread DJA posted, there is a photograph conveniently labeled that "Willy" went permanently insane in 1874. SO it seems natural to comb through the family to try and find said "Willy".

Now the guy named William was the 8th Duke of Bedford. He was a shut-in, and generally infirm. Shut-ins are very good candidates for mental illness. But he died in 1872. So not our guy.

The 10th Duke of Bedford was a George William Francis Sackville Russell, so he could be a "Willy" and he would have been 30 ish in 1873. Of course he graduated from Oxford 1874, and married in 1876, neither activities enjoyed by the permanently insane. He was also a member of parliament for about 10 years during this period, but I imagine someone could pull that off and be mad at the same time if one worked really hard at it. He was High Sherriff in 1889, and Deputy Lieutenant, and as an American I don't know precisely what those jobs entail, so it could have been a photo op or a real job, and I wouldn't know either way. They sound important.

But I don't think this was "off his noggin Willy" either. Despite the fact his father shot himself, which is usually a good indication that mental illness runs in the family. Except in this case a high fever was involved so his father wasn't mad, he just had febrile delusions. Which happens. There is no truer saying than what my nurse told me when I had a terrible infection. "Everyone's gotta go somewhere in a hurry when they have a high fever." I watched it. Every patient in my ward lurched up at some point to go somewhere... from home to the last show of the circus. We all had to go somewhere, right at that moment. Nothing else would do. So imagine how powerful a full delusion can be.

Bertrand Russell's uncle Willy had to be George Gilbert William Russell (1848-1933). Lord John Russell's second son, and apparently not noteworthy enough to get a Wikipedia article. He would have been 36 when declared insane in 1874? Which would have made him 50 in 1888, putting him a bit on the old side to be the Ripper, but it would not rule him out. the question is the if he was permanently insane, and there are at least some kind of asylum records, then how was he out and about to be the Ripper?

But I don't think the mad Russell was the 10th duke. I think it was his uncle.

The man in the asylum was referred to as "the Honorable" William Russell. I think that reference only applies to an MP. Please let me know if I'm mistaken.

[SuspectZero]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categoryukes_of_Bedford

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Arthur_Russell

Sorry. His name was not Arthur.

[DJA]

Sorta noticed that. Was replying to Errata.

Fair number of Honourables in that family....and extended family.

Pollies,judges,Holders of Royal Warrants,Most Honourable Order of the Bath......

[Rosella]

High Sheriffs and Lords Lieutenant of counties are appointed by the Monarch from the recommendation of a Parliamentary committee nowadays. In Victorian times it would probably have been at the recommendation of the Prime Minister. There was a little bit of administration work involved for them and their deputies, but in general there was a lot of making speeches at banquets and greeting dignitaries (including royalty) to their city/town/county on occasion and escorting them around if need be. I really can't see a person who was seriously mentally ill (to the point where it was noticeable) doing that.

On the other hand the 10th Duke was born in 1852 wasn't he, so he would have been in his late 30's in 1888. Don't think he's Jack though.

[SuspectZero]

Earl of Lewes = Duke of Bedford?

Reading through the case notes of the "Earl of Lewes" (also called Lord Lewes) who was incarcerated at the Manor House Asylum in Chiswick. This is someone dangerous. Dr called him "dangerous lunatic". Certificates of insanity. Scared his family so much they left Edrige castle. Violent. Threatened his father the Marquess. Pulled a knife on his brother. Says he was 29 years old on admittance. Apparently 2nd time to Manor House. First time was in 1876. but the case notes don't say year of the notes I'm reading. I'm getting chills reading this. Is this guy the Duke of Bedford?

[Errata]

Reading through the case notes of the "Earl of Lewes" (also called Lord Lewes) who was incarcerated at the Manor House Asylum in Chiswick. This is someone dangerous. Dr called him "dangerous lunatic". Certificates of insanity. Scared his family so much they left Edrige castle. Violent. Threatened his father the Marquess. Pulled a knife on his brother. Says he was 29 years old on admittance. Apparently 2nd time to Manor House. First time was in 1876. but the case notes don't say year of the notes I'm reading. I'm getting chills reading this. Is this guy the Duke of Bedford?

It wasn't the Duke of Bedford. It was... umm.. the 6th Duke of Bedford's 3rd son's (John Russell) second son (George Gilbert William Russell). Making the guy in the asylum a second cousin to the Duke of Bedford? Or is it an uncle? Dammit I need a chart. But a son of the 1st Earl of Russell. I think. I'm pretty sure. Because the dates line up. And with a Crazy Willy one would expect to have William as one of his names, and it is. And the 10th Duke of Bedford was too visible, the 9th too old, and the 8th died too early to be in the asylum.

Related, but not the Duke. I'm pretty sure. I hate genealogy. Someone should check my begats.

[SuspectZero]

It wasn't the Duke of Bedford. It was... umm.. the 6th Duke of Bedford's 3rd son's (John Russell) second son (George Gilbert William Russell). Making the guy in the asylum a second cousin to the Duke of Bedford? Or is it an uncle? Dammit I need a chart. But a son of the 1st Earl of Russell. I think. I'm pretty sure. Because the dates line up. And with a Crazy Willy one would expect to have William as one of his names, and it is. And the 10th Duke of Bedford was too visible, the 9th too old, and the 8th died too early to be in the asylum.

Related, but not the Duke. I'm pretty sure. I hate genealogy. Someone should check my begats.

Well they addressed him as Lord Lewes.

[Errata]

Well they addressed him as Lord Lewes.

Yeah that doesn't help me. Lord Lewes would theoretically have some connection to Lewes, which the straight ducal family would not, but some of the extra kids might if they married into it. For all I know the Crazy Willy I pointed out was a Lord Lewes somehow. I have nothing on him but a name and his birth and death date. But it's the right birth date for the man you describe.

[SuspectZero]

Yeah that doesn't help me. Lord Lewes would theoretically have some connection to Lewes, which the straight ducal family would not, but some of the extra kids might if they married into it. For all I know the Crazy Willy I pointed out was a Lord Lewes somehow. I have nothing on him but a name and his birth and death date. But it's the right birth date for the man you describe.

Ok. The Earl went to the castle. He attacked his uncle there and held a knife on his brother. The family left the castle and refused to return if he was still there. He's called the Earl of Lewes and Lord Lewes. With all due respect, this sounds like a primary family member, not 'one of the kids'. Based on a newspaper that was in the case file, I date this at around 1882. In the later case files of 1887, the name is now Hon William Russell. Aren't they all connected to the Nevill family?

[DJA]

Well they addressed him as Lord Juwes.

Fixed

Just had a big electrical storm which knocked out power and therefore Internet.
Put a damper on the bushfires that have been going for over 5 weeks

Been watching Burke and Hare on the laptop.
Right pair of burkes.