A present for Scotland Yard

[Debra A]

Hi Debra,

Thanks for this, it's much appreciated. It does, however, seem that Dr Biggs considered that the Victorian autopsies were less thorough than would be the case today. In fact, referring to the inquest reports in the Eddowes case he comments, "there's actually very little detail of use in the text", and "much of the description is vague and potentially ambiguous" (Marriott, 2015). He also made an interesting comment on the Rainham case, "It's worth noting that comments relating to "anatomical knowledge" or "surgical skill" should be taken with a pinch of salt in these sort of cases. I have seen surgeons and pathologists make a right mess of human anatomy, and I have seen "amateurs" making a pretty good job of cutting up a body at their first attempt...and I find their assumption that a surgeon or anatomist couldn't not have done such a good job because they are not cutting as regularly as a hunter or a butcher quite bizarre."(Marriott, 2015.)

Thanks John. I am just uncomfortable that Dr Biggs perhaps 'casual' comments based on scant material I provided in the four torso cases is being referenced as some sort of academic research just because it happens to have been published in a rushed, and in places inaccurate, after-thought chapter in Trevor Marriott's book. I wasn't aware this material would be published and I wonder if Dr Biggs did.

Recently Dr Biggs (via Marriott) mentioned that he had worked on a 'handful' of cases involving dismemberment in his short career and that two cases can look very similar in terms of how someone would go about reducing a body for disposal. That's very interesting but Dr Biggs list of the usual commonalities included 'splitting torsos in half' whereas; two of the four cases under discussion had their torso divided into 3 sections, one into 2 and one not divided, so Dr Biggs was obviously not addressing specifics of the four cases in his conclusions, just making general comments.

I might also guess that Dr Biggs 'handful' of cases weren't all cases of a similar victim type- gender, age, displaying similar wounds and organs removed at a time when a post mortem mutilator was at work in the same city.

I will leave it there also.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi John
It should be pointed out that Dr Biggs made comments on the four cases 87-89 based on brief notes of the main points, provided by me. He did not have all the information available from the notes Bond and Hebbert provided on the cases for the 1894 Medical Jurisprudence textbook or Hebbert's Lectures on forensic medicine for the Westminster Hospital.
Also, I do feel Hebbert and Bond maybe had a point in the comments they made about doctors and surgeons not being as much practiced in joint disarticulation as a butcher or slaughterer may be in as much as it seems to be rare that surgeons make limb amputations at the actual joint.

Hi Debs
As a matter of interest what else could you have provided that may have made Dr Biggs give a different opinion?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

Hi Debs
As a matter of interest what else could you have provided that may have made Dr Biggs give a different opinion?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor
As a professional; I would think Dr Biggs would want to base his opinions on as much of the available material as possible if he were being asked to make conclusions or comments that were being published? Maybe I'm wrong.

[John G]

Hi Debs
As a matter of interest what else could you have provided that may have made Dr Biggs give a different opinion?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

I hope you don't mind me asking, but have you considered writing a book on the Torso Murders/Mysteries? It's certainly an interesting subject and, to my knowledge, only two books have been written on the subject, neither in my view definitive: MJ Trow appears to have been in error when he referred to the Tottenham victim having a tattoo (something Debra appears to have disproved, which is problematic for Trow as one of his chapters was entitled The Girl with the Rose Tattoo), and Gordon, I believe, lumped all of the Whitechapel and Torso victims together and concluded that George Chapman was responsible for the lot!

[Pierre]

Actually he is still arguing with me that he did not mislead us on that.

he also said he has not seen a picture of the person, only one of a relative. although he believed there could be one somewhere he was not sure.
On the other hand if we could all stop responding to him, which i know would not be easy, a new thread every few days, he would have to say more and more. then when he finally gives name, it can be looked at and either accepted as a good contender or rejected.

elamarna

Hi Steve,

You write "he would have to say more and more".

I donīt know what gave you the idea that I donīt chose to write want I want here and nothing else.

Also, you have an idea you and the others here on the forum could decide whether the person I have found should be "accepted" or not. Well, you canīt. And do you know why you canīt do that?

Because either he was the killer or not. So he can never be a "suspect", a "contender" or "accepted/rejected" and so on and so forth.

That sort of thinking is exactly the reason why no one has managed to find Jack the Ripper until now, if I have happened to find him.

So I will not give you his name without knowing if he was the killer or not.

You see, Steve, this is not a game. This is reality.

But I do understand that you are enjoying yourself. So please do go ahead with it. And I like our discussions. They are interesting.

Kind Regards, Pierre

[GUT]

And I like our discussions. They are interesting.

Kind Regards, Pierre

Well Steve's are anyway.

[John G]

Thanks John. I am just uncomfortable that Dr Biggs perhaps 'casual' comments based on scant material I provided in the four torso cases is being referenced as some sort of academic research just because it happens to have been published in a rushed, and in places inaccurate, after-thought chapter in Trevor Marriott's book. I wasn't aware this material would be published and I wonder if Dr Biggs did.

Recently Dr Biggs (via Marriott) mentioned that he had worked on a 'handful' of cases involving dismemberment in his short career and that two cases can look very similar in terms of how someone would go about reducing a body for disposal. That's very interesting but Dr Biggs list of the usual commonalities included 'splitting torsos in half' whereas; two of the four cases under discussion had their torso divided into 3 sections, one into 2 and one not divided, so Dr Biggs was obviously not addressing specifics of the four cases in his conclusions, just making general comments.

I might also guess that Dr Biggs 'handful' of cases weren't all cases of a similar victim type- gender, age, displaying similar wounds and organs removed at a time when a post mortem mutilator was at work in the same city.

I will leave it there also.

Thanks once again, Debra. As always you make some excellent points, maybe you should write a definitive book on the subject with Trevor. Of course, considering the Torsos appeared to have been dismembered differently, or applying different techniques, the question arises as to whether this is indicative of multiple perpetrators. Of course, I have argued myself that most of the victims may have been murdered by a single perpetrator, but I'm conscious of the fact that it's easy to ignore important or relevant facts of they don't fit with a particularly theory, and that's clearly not bring objective!

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

You write "he would have to say more and more".

I donīt know what gave you the idea that I donīt chose to write want I want here and nothing else.

EGO

Also, you have an idea you and the others here on the forum could decide whether the person I have found should be "accepted" or not. Well, you canīt. And do you know why you canīt do that?

You actually believe you evidence is so "STRONG"

Because either he was the killer or not. So he can never be a "suspect", a "contender" or "accepted/rejected" and so on and so forth.

Learn English, they are a suspect since you believe they did it

That sort of thinking is exactly the reason why no one has managed to find Jack the Ripper until now, if I have happened to find him.

So I will not give you his name without knowing if he was the killer or not.

You see, Steve, this is not a game. This is reality.

You are right these murders were no game, but the game you are playing is nearly up

But I do understand that you are enjoying yourself. So please do go ahead with it. And I like our discussions. They are interesting.

I am not enjoying myself at all. there is no fun in trying to discuss with a "Brick Wall" A truly Pointless exercise

Kind Regards, Pierre

regards

[GUT]

I am not enjoying myself at all. there is no fun in trying to discuss with a "Brick Wall" A truly Pointless exercise

A bit like hitting your head against that same brick wall Steve, feels good when you stop.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Fisherman

Your policeman, Pierre - can you give an approximation as to when he was born? A span of five years will do, and it will leave him incognito.

No.

Regards Pierre

[GUT]

[/COLOR]

No.

Regards Pierre

Because you don't know or because you refuse to say?

[Pierre]

regards

Hi Steve,

I donīt know your age, Steve. But during 127 years people, and generations of ripperologists, have been wondering who Jack the Ripper was.

Presuming you have some years left in your own life, you should be happy knowing that you and your generation might be the ones who will get to know the real ID of Jack the Ripper.

So relax.

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

Because you don't know or because you refuse to say?

I know it.

Regards Pierre

[Fisherman]

[/COLOR]

No.

Regards Pierre

How about pinning down if he was born before or after 1855 then, Pierre? Surely that would give away practically nothing at all.

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

I donīt know your age, Steve. But during 127 years people, and generations of ripperologists, have been wondering who Jack the Ripper was.

Presuming you have some years left in your own life, you should be happy knowing that you and your generation might be the ones who will get to know the real ID of Jack the Ripper.

So relax.

Regards Pierre

my dear boy i am a good deal order than you are.
stop being patronising, you don't do it very well
relax? why do you think i am not relaxed?