The profession of Jack the Ripper.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

Thanks for reply.

I agree Monro had the strongest motivation - to embarrass Warren (which is what happened) leading to Warren resigning.

The concern with Monro is he was born in 1838 so was 50 y.o. when killings occurred. Too old ? Also, inconsistent with possible Ripper witnesses who described a man much younger.

I had previously thought that it was Macnaghten, who was close friends with Monro and had an even stronger motivation. He transferred his family from India to London based upon the job offer from Monro which Warren over-ruled. Would have been incredibly embarrassing.

However Pierre said his suspect was not Macnaghten

Craig

Hi Craig
Re-Littlechild-he was the one who said he thought tumblety was a suspect, correct? Not sure how that would fit into the theory that he was the ripper-except maybe trying to deflect blame from himself? but he named tumblety much later after the murders and the case was cold so not sure if that would be needed.

[Abby Normal]

I’ve done some research (using Ancestry) into who Pierre’s suspect is and think I have a short list.

He gave a number of clues : police official, born before 1858, lived in several high status homes, had a nickname of “Jack”, had anatomical knowledge but not a doctor, was not a local to Whitechapel area, intelligent, well-educated, knew Thomas Bowyer, was not a Police Constable, can’t find a photo of him and wanted to humiliate police.

The lived in high status homes provides only a short list. I excluded those who were too old (such as Monsell)

Chief Inspector John George Littlechild (8 The Chase, Clapham) – born 1847, wife and 3 children, Head Special Irish Branch, sick from late 1887 (nervous breakdown), wealthy (9,700 pound probate when died in 1923), wrote memoirs

Colonel William Arthur Roberts (19 Bullingham Mansions Pitt St, Kensington) – born 1841, military family, served for Royal Horse artillery (including in India), wife & 2 children, moved to Police as Chief Constable, resigned after declared bankrupt in 1895, only had 80 pound probate when died in 1906, widow wife continued to live in same home and died 1921with 699 pound in probate.

Alexander Carmichael Bruce (82 Lexham Gardens, Kensington) - Assistant Commissioner of Metro Police – born 1850, Oxford Uni Law degree, was a barrister, wife & child

Colonel Bolton James Alfred Monsell (25 Gordon Sq, St Pancras ) Chief Constable - Born 1840, father a Vicar, responsible for East End London, wife, children & servants.

Captain Arthur Cyprian Knollys (67 St Georges Rd, Pimlico) - Born 1851, wealthy influential family who served royal family at senior level, adjutant in Scots Fusillier Guards, served in Egypt.

Where I struggle is why would a Police Official want to humiliate and embarrass their own force.

Only Bruce was well-educated (Oxford Uni Law degree) but was in a high position in the Force.

Roberts and Knollys were ex-Army Leaders so it’s possible they could have been critical of the Police force.

The difficulty with Roberts and Knollys is there is very little newspaper articles mentioning them, so not sure where Pierre could have found his data sources.

The only one mentioned in newspaper archives is John George Littlechild. While in the Irish Branch, he would have been familiar with police activities in Whitechapel. Like many men called John, he may also have been called “Jack”.

Littlechild also said he had a nervous breakdown and was sick from late 1887. He was not working in second half of 1888, only returning in December.

Does anyone know anything about his illness ? Also, I thought I read somewhere that he was arrested over that 18 month period – any detail on this ?

Also, does anyone know anything about William Arthur Roberts ? I can’t find much on Britishnewspaper archive.

Craig

Hi Again Craig
I can see the motivation for Monro and Mcnaughten to get revenge (against warren specifically) but the men you listed-what possible motive for anger or revenge against the police could they have?

[Craig H]

Hi Abby

Agreed - I find it hard to think that any police official would have been involved in the killings.

It was interesting to read that Littlechild had suffered a nervous breakdown in 1888, so not sure if that means anything.

And yes, Littlechild was the official who named Tumblety as a likely suspect.

All the best
Craig

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

Agreed - I find it hard to think that any police official would have been involved in the killings.

It was interesting to read that Littlechild had suffered a nervous breakdown in 1888, so not sure if that means anything.

And yes, Littlechild was the official who named Tumblety as a likely suspect.

All the best
Craig

well it is interesting and somewhat of a coincidence that he suffered a mental break down previous to and apparently NOT working during the ripper killings.

many folks think the ripper had serious mental issues.


What could he have against warren specifically and/or the police in general???

[Elamarna]

Craig,
Firstly good work in checking those out.

I know that both Monro and MM were denied, but that obviously does not rule them out. both could be argued to have been wronged, but the source was Warren who left in 88, while we are asked to accept the murders carried on until late 89, that obviously would need to be explained.

Problems with both if they are the Suspect: Monro was less than mobile after injury and MM was not even in police at time.

Remember we were told he had not been able to find a picture of the police officer, so that should discount both and Littlechild too.

Personally i do not have a problem with the killer being in the Police. although high ranking officers would be more likely to stick out in Whitechapel than lower ranking,and local officers.


regards

Steve

[Craig H]

Hi Steve

Thanks for comments.

Good point about Pierre saying there was no photo of his suspect which would preclude Littlechild.

That was why I was initially leaning towards William Arthur Roberts - there is no photo of him but photos of his descendants (who were in military also).

Roberts was ex-Army so not steeped in Police culture or history, so may have been easier for him to have some desire to embarrass Police force (not sure why).

Roberts also served in India, as did Thomas Bowyer (who Pierre said the killer knew).

Finally, it's unusual that Roberts was declared bankrupt in 1895, had little money in probate when he died, and yet still lived in a good area and his wife had a lot of money in probate when she died.

It would be good to find out more about Roberts - there's not much in newspaper archives.

Which comes back to what Pierre meant by he discovered "data sources". The sources could only be newspaper articles, police records, books / memoirs, or personal correspondence (not sure how one could get the last one).

There is very little on Roberts, Knollys or Bruce in Britishnewspaper archives. However, there is more about Littlechild, including his memoirs "Reminiscences of a Chief Inspector".

I think Pierre found something in Littlechild's memoirs or articles, and is using that as his source.

Craig

[Craig H]

well it is interesting and somewhat of a coincidence that he suffered a mental break down previous to and apparently NOT working during the ripper killings.

many folks think the ripper had serious mental issues.


What could he have against warren specifically and/or the police in general???

Hi Abby

Good question ..... I don't know enough about the short list of folk and what could motivate them.

Littlechild worked in the Irish Branch and was involved in finding and arresting people with explosives. Maybe he had not received the promotion or recognition he thought he deserved ??

Roberts was ex-Army before being appointed Chief Constable. His father was Army, as were his two sons. I don't know if he saw the move to the Police as a backward career move, or whether he thought he could have held a more senior role. The Police force at that time were not as disciplined or professional as the army. Maybe Roberts disproved of the leadership ?

I'm not sure. I was only taking the clues that Pierre left and try to determine who his suspect could be.

Regards, Craig

[Elamarna]

Craig,

Did wonder if Pierre was doing some family research, not necessarily his own, but maybe for someone else. I say this because he did say he came across data while researching something else.

Are we looking too high up in the police? A local officer would be better suited to appearing and disappearing.
He did say the suspect was well known in his day, but not now. would any of those you mention fit that?
Littlechild may have been well known in the force, but was he known to the public at all? and the picture reference does seem to rule him out.



we were also told the the name JACK meant something to him, so obviously we need to look at anyone called John, Littlechild, Spratling and any others and see if they match any of the clues.

Date he was born before.
Serving police official.
Well Educated.
lived for a period in a mansion, this could have been as child of servant of course, or as one himself.
Well known at the Time.
No photo readily available, but some of relatives available.
Had resentment of police due to some sort of perceived slight, I note Roberts was promoted in 1887.
Reasons for killings stopped in late 89.


if we fine someone who matches all of those points we may have the suspect.

Steve

[Craig H]

Hi Steve

I can send you a working document with the 50 Police officials I looked at.

I'm not sure how to attach a document here, have just sent you a PM

Craig

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve

I can send you a working document with the 50 Police officials I looked at.

I'm not sure how to attach a document here, have just sent you a PM

Craig

no pm arrived craig, but sent you 1 too

steve

[Abby Normal]

Craig,

Did wonder if Pierre was doing some family research, not necessarily his own, but maybe for someone else. I say this because he did say he came across data while researching something else.

Are we looking too high up in the police? A local officer would be better suited to appearing and disappearing.
He did say the suspect was well known in his day, but not now. would any of those you mention fit that?
Littlechild may have been well known in the force, but was he known to the public at all? and the picture reference does seem to rule him out.



we were also told the the name JACK meant something to him, so obviously we need to look at anyone called John, Littlechild, Spratling and any others and see if they match any of the clues.

Date he was born before.
Serving police official.
Well Educated.
lived for a period in a mansion, this could have been as child of servant of course, or as one himself.
Well known at the Time.
No photo readily available, but some of relatives available.
Had resentment of police due to some sort of perceived slight, I note Roberts was promoted in 1887.
Reasons for killings stopped in late 89.


if we fine someone who matches all of those points we may have the suspect.

Steve

Hi Steve

He did say the suspect was well known in his day, but not now

.

well that would rule out Littlechild as he is obviously well known now-especially since he gave us Tumblety as a suspect.

[Mayerling]

Hi all,

I haven't really gotten involved in the thread recently, as I haven't much to consider from my own knowledge of the police officers. I did suggest to Steve last night in a message that maybe it isn't a police officer or official (although that seems the direction Pierre was hinting at) but an informer or "narc" the police gave protection to, who happened to live in the East End. He'd blend in perfectly into the crime scene areas, as he'd live there. Also there would be little problem about blood stained uniforms.

The alternative (to me) is thinking about 1889. What is significant about that year? What police figure was well known at that time who faded suddenly? Abberline came acropper that year because of his apparent failure to get Lord Arthur Somerset (who fled abroad) and others involved in the gay bordello on Cleveland Street. His career seems to tailspin with the public. But it seems a stretch that the man supposed to catch the Ripper was the Ripper.

One problem I've noticed on these matters - we are acting with some degree of hindsight. WE know about these officers because we've been digging. That does not translate to how well the public did. The public might know the upper echelons (like Anderson, with his work against Irish nationalists), but would they have really known about Cutbush? One thing I'm keeping in mind: I don't think the literary school of Scotland Yard memoir writers really took root in the 19th Century - it's more of a 20th Century phenomenon. Then we have people like Anderson, MacNaghten (sp.), Wensley, Neill, Dew, and others writing or having memoirs ghost written for them. If I am wrong please correct me on this point. Anyway, the moment these fellows start writing their names and reputations are salvaged or resurrected into public memory.

Jeff

[Elamarna]

Jeff i agree with you regards how well known any of them were.
The informer idea is interesting, but does not fit in with Pierre's theory I think.

Of course the man sent to catch the ripper is one of whom we do not have a 100% certain photo, but to suggest he may have had a reason to attack the Police to me would seem to be the stuff of movies. so like you I consider him unlikely.

steve

[Craig H]

no pm arrived craig, but sent you 1 too

steve

Hi Steve. just sent PM

All the best
Craig

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve. just sent PM

All the best
Craig

still nothing come to me.

steve