The profession of Jack the Ripper.

[Monty]

Nihil dicit

Monty

[Craig H]

Hi Craig H,

Chief Constable, Major Walter Edward Gilbert.

Simon

Thanks Simon.

William Edward Gilbert was born 1848 in Norfolk (other William Alexander).
The 1881 Census he is an army captain with 5 kids (born in India) and 3 servants living at Winchester (with servants)

In 1891 Census, he is living at 69 Upper Tulse Hill Road, Brixton, Lambeth, with wife, 5 kids and 2 servants.

Craig

[Hercule Poirot]

...My favourite suspect is Tumblety as he was a woman hater picked up on by the American press, mentioned by Littlechild who once from an anecdote showed someone his collection of uteri and left behind some suspicious rings. Setting aside the question of where he was held after his arrest, I think in the absence of any tangible clues from Pierre for his policeman theory, I might get back to it as this is all getting a little bit too abstract.

I read on another forum that the expression 'woman hater' was used back then to define a mysogynist and not necessarily someone who would be violent with women.
Cheers,
Hercule Poirot

[Whitechapel]

I read on another forum that the expression 'woman hater' was used back then to define a mysogynist and not necessarily someone who would be violent with women.
Cheers,
Hercule Poirot

It maybe so, in my opinion the killer was someone who hated women and the object of their malice was a soft target, Victorian prostitutes too drunk to resist in the small hours of the morning. The killer took it to a whole new level by mutilating their genitals and removing organs and maybe the attack on their faces could also be seen as an attack on their femininity especially their eyes.

However for me 'ripper' is a misnomer as the murderer slit their throat efficiently as the real object of interest was their organs. He didn't slash at them as he wanted to locate and preserve what he wanted to remove, whether that was to position it around the body or take one home as a souvenir. Some of the doctors remarked on the skill of his work. I think the killer was cold and calculated and the murders were just a means to an end.

Tumblety is on record as hating women, but the anecdote about his collection of uteri, does beg the question of how he obtained them. It was the police though, American newspapers and Littlechild though who confirm they thought he was capable of making the leap from mysoginist to murderer.

[drstrange169]

Hello Craig,

>>The more I read about Warren, the more I can understand why hatred from him may have been a motive for the killer.<<

Hating Warren is one thing, selecting victims in the East End of London as revenge is a big leap.


>>JTR as a police official would also explain why the killer always managed to just escape being discovered by a police man on a beat. This should have been a clue to the Police that JTR was one of their own, as he must have known their beat routines.<

Sounds good on paper but, very different in reality. The murders being discussed here occurred in various different police divisions. Pre computers this information was easily to hand. Also the routes of roving sergeants were not predestined adding to the complications.


>>Finally, it also explains why the killings started around the time when Warren humiliated Monro by rejecting his appointment of Macnaghten, and ended (if Kelly was the final murder) when Warren resigned and was replaced by Monro.<<

Monroe was a seasoned performer, more than capable of looking after himself. He got Anderson in on the inside and of course got the job back. No need for obscure murder when good old fashioned office politics achieved the gaol.

Did the murders actually have anything to do with Warren's removal? That is something yet to be demonstrated.

[Whitechapel]

Hi Whitechapel,

Thanks for your additional information.

The more I read about Warren, the more I can understand why hatred from him may have been a motive for the killer.

JTR as a police official would also explain why the killer always managed to just escape being discovered by a police man on a beat. This should have been a clue to the Police that JTR was one of their own, as he must have known their beat routines. It also explains why Kelly was murdered in-house as he knew there were more police on patrol, as well as plainclothes police (who were not working a known beat).

Finally, it also explains why the killings started around the time when Warren humiliated Monro by rejecting his appointment of Macnaghten, and ended (if Kelly was the final murder) when Warren resigned and was replaced by Monro.

If we take a bigger picture of what was actually achieved by JTR, the main “outcome” was that a disliked leader (Warren) who created negative morale was replaced by a more professional leader (Monro) who implemented a number of changes.

I don’t think Monro was JTR as he was too old (born 1838). I still think the most likely candidate was Macnaghten who had a close friendship with Monro, and had a personal motivation to discredit Warren (as Macnaghten moved his family from India to London based upon a job appointment that was overturned).

Craig

Thanks Craig, it certainly confirms that the killer chose the right moment presuming he didn't know the confusion and battles within the Metropolitan Police at this time. I very much like your train of thought that the killer being one of their own, allowed him to be one step of the game and especially knowing about the extra patrols he went in-house on the last one. If I was the killer, the more murders I committed the more danger I would be in, so I would want to know as much as possible about the police lines of inquiry and what they were doing so I could avoid them. What better way than to be a policeman yourself. However if he had thoughts of invincibility (like Sutcliffe), he was going to kill again despite the extra police activity. But knowledge from newspapers or inside knowledge would have helped.

I think the extra patrols explains the gap in October and when he did murder again he went for quality over quantity. He had committed a double murder before but now really indulged himself by an organ harvest with Mary Kelly.

If you are creating this police theory, then the Mary Kelly murder would fit into the motive to create as much bad publicity for the police as possible. It can be argued that the killer created the Mary Kelly scene for the same effect as Charles Manson, as before he sent the women out he told one of them to do something 'witchy' at the murder scene and she wrote on the wall in blood. This wasn't a spur of the moment act, it was planned to create maximum terror. In London the Mary Kelly murder heaped even more embarrassment on the Metropolitan Police.

[Rosemary]

Zen

Hi Steve,

in my research there is a core.

Outside the core is the exploring area.

Regards, Pierre

Perhaps a koan would have been a shadow of clarity.

[Whitechapel]

Hello Craig,

>>The more I read about Warren, the more I can understand why hatred from him may have been a motive for the killer.<<

Hating Warren is one thing, selecting victims in the East End of London as revenge is a big leap.


>>JTR as a police official would also explain why the killer always managed to just escape being discovered by a police man on a beat. This should have been a clue to the Police that JTR was one of their own, as he must have known their beat routines.<

Sounds good on paper but, very different in reality. The murders being discussed here occurred in various different police divisions. Pre computers this information was easily to hand. Also the routes of roving sergeants were not predestined adding to the complications.


>>Finally, it also explains why the killings started around the time when Warren humiliated Monro by rejecting his appointment of Macnaghten, and ended (if Kelly was the final murder) when Warren resigned and was replaced by Monro.<<

Monroe was a seasoned performer, more than capable of looking after himself. He got Anderson in on the inside and of course got the job back. No need for obscure murder when good old fashioned office politics achieved the gaol.

Did the murders actually have anything to do with Warren's removal? That is something yet to be demonstrated.

Hi drstrange

I am going to play devil's advocate here.

Hating anyone is one thing, but murdering them in a grisly way is another.

If I was the murderer I could get local knowledge of the beats and constables just by wandering around Whitechapel and its environs and watching them, I wouldn't rely on a list. But the sort of information I could get from being within the service, is how many extra police were being sent to Whitechapel and suspects the police were interested in, including if my name was among them as well as other secrets they were withholding from the public.

Craig already knows that Monro was capable of staying in favour as I pointed out that Henry Matthews was a political ally. You can argue that it just meant they hated Warren more and the timings fit.

As for Warren as I understand he wasn't removed, he resigned. The day after Warren resigns, the most terrible of all the Ripper murders takes place, You can argue it either way.

[Rosella]

If Jack was one of the police's own and knew exactly where beat police and sergeants checking up on them were at all times (something I don't believe possible in the days before computers) why no murders in October?

That month would have been ideal, still good enough weather to roam about easily, a bit of concealing fog at times, also the seeming ability to dodge any patrols by young men from Toynbee Hall and the WVC. Why then, did this all-seeing, all-knowing police official not avail himself of the opportunities offered? Instead there is a large gap between the end of September and the second week of November when the Kelly murder occurred.

[Garry Wroe]

JTR as a police official would also explain why the killer always managed to just escape being discovered by a police man on a beat. This should have been a clue to the Police that JTR was one of their own, as he must have known their beat routines.

The likely explanation is much more mundane, Craig. The Ripper killed at times when the streets were largely deserted of human and vehicular traffic. The quietness of the hour meant that the heavy boots of beat policemen could be heard from some distance away, thus alerting the killer to impending danger long before anyone appeared on the scene. George Morris confirmed this simple reality, as did Fanny Mortimer and a number of others.

[Pierre]

Hi Whitechapel,

Thanks for your additional information.

The more I read about Warren, the more I can understand why hatred from him may have been a motive for the killer.

JTR as a police official would also explain why the killer always managed to just escape being discovered by a police man on a beat. This should have been a clue to the Police that JTR was one of their own, as he must have known their beat routines. It also explains why Kelly was murdered in-house as he knew there were more police on patrol, as well as plainclothes police (who were not working a known beat).

Finally, it also explains why the killings started around the time when Warren humiliated Monro by rejecting his appointment of Macnaghten, and ended (if Kelly was the final murder) when Warren resigned and was replaced by Monro.

If we take a bigger picture of what was actually achieved by JTR, the main “outcome” was that a disliked leader (Warren) who created negative morale was replaced by a more professional leader (Monro) who implemented a number of changes.

I don’t think Monro was JTR as he was too old (born 1838). I still think the most likely candidate was Macnaghten who had a close friendship with Monro, and had a personal motivation to discredit Warren (as Macnaghten moved his family from India to London based upon a job appointment that was overturned).

Craig

Hi Craig,

Monro deployed 3 sergeants and 39 constables on duty in Whitechapel, increasing the force with 22 extra men on the day of the murder of Alice MacKenzie. I wonder why.

http://www.casebook.org/victims/mckenzie.html

Regards, Pierre

[Abby Normal]

Hi Craig,

Monro deployed 3 sergeants and 39 constables on duty in Whitechapel, increasing the force with 22 extra men on the day of the murder of Alice MacKenzie. I wonder why.

http://www.casebook.org/victims/mckenzie.html

Regards, Pierre

Because he was Jack the Ripper?

[Elamarna]

Hi Craig,

Monro deployed 3 sergeants and 39 constables on duty in Whitechapel, increasing the force with 22 extra men on the day of the murder of Alice MacKenzie. I wonder why.

http://www.casebook.org/victims/mckenzie.html

Regards, Pierre

The obvious answer for the poster is that the murder having taken place before 12.50 am, was viewed by Monro to be at another killing by the same hand as the previous murders. He therefore wanted to put men back on the streets the numbers having been reduced early in the year, so later that day the numbers of officers was increased.

Why should that be presented as a mystery , the question "I wonder why" by the poster?

[Elamarna]

Because he was Jack the Ripper?

Dear Abby

Either that or the suggestion is that he knew who it was and was expecting more.
Given his stand on pensions, perhaps he just wanted his officers to earn more money in overtime.

Steve

[Whitechapel]

My first guess is that he was lonely.

OR he is just doing his job as he is increasing police numbers in response to the murder to chase leads for house to house inquiries or provide a police presence.

OR if I'm being cynical then it's after the horse has bolted, it's too little too late and it's to protect his reputation after he criticised Warren for not being able to catch JTR.

OR maybe both