The profession of Jack the Ripper.

[DJA]

GUT

what are you thinking?

steve

Pavs,prolly

The "Dear Boss" letter,written in a neat schoolboy hand, may be the first we saw of the name Jack the Ripper.

[el_pombo]

Dear Craig

I think we may need to agree to disagree on this one point.
Of course it's all down to interpreting Pierre's comment about knowing him from Whitechapel.
While I agree he does not say no, which he normally does to a question like Abby's he does say knew him from, not knew him in which to me says he had not met him before.

I do however agree on how Pierre would know this is intersting.
It does hold if the suspect is Roberts, but could also hold for anyone who may have been in India at same time. That is its an assumption by Pierre.

The only other alternatives are:

1. There is a diary. Highly unlikely I feel

2. Bowyer is named in a document , maybe a report of some sort about a different issue but either by the suspect of about him. This would imply the suspect is a local officer.

3. It is an invention, pure and simple

Of course no way of knowing which if any of the above are true

Steve

I go for number 3!

All the best!

[Abby Normal]

Dear Craig

I think we may need to agree to disagree on this one point.
Of course it's all down to interpreting Pierre's comment about knowing him from Whitechapel.
While I agree he does not say no, which he normally does to a question like Abby's he does say knew him from, not knew him in which to me says he had not met him before.

I do however agree on how Pierre would know this is intersting.
It does hold if the suspect is Roberts, but could also hold for anyone who may have been in India at same time. That is its an assumption by Pierre.

The only other alternatives are:

1. There is a diary. Highly unlikely I feel

2. Bowyer is named in a document , maybe a report of some sort about a different issue but either by the suspect of about him. This would imply the suspect is a local officer.

3. It is an invention, pure and simple

Of course no way of knowing which if any of the above are true

Steve

Hi Craig, Steve
I interpreted his reply to me as-no it wasn't through any military connection from India, but that Bowyer met the ripper by chance (the first time they ever met) in whitechapel.

personally, my interest in pierres suspect is now only one of passing interest-like a game. From the hints he has given, especially the metaphorical stuff, seems to me that if he ever comes back and names him it will more than likely be rather unbelievable and far fetched.

But I have to admit, pierre was growing on me-quite the character!
and ironically some useful stuff actually came out through some of his threads, IMHO.

[Elamarna]

Hi Craig, Steve
I interpreted his reply to me as-no it wasn't through any military connection from India, but that Bowyer met the ripper by chance (the first time they ever met) in whitechapel.

personally, my interest in pierres suspect is now only one of passing interest-like a game. From the hints he has given, especially the metaphorical stuff, seems to me that if he ever comes back and names him it will more than likely be rather unbelievable and far fetched.

But I have to admit, pierre was growing on me-quite the character!
and ironically some useful stuff actually came out through some of his threads, IMHO.

Hi Abby,

thank you for that, same as I saw it.

have to agree with you on most of what you say, but this piece if research by Craig with a few comments by myself will do several things:

1. If Pierre ever does come back, and if he names a suspect, we will be in a much better position to examine the claim.

2. From a pure research point of view, it should give some invaluable data for any one looking at particular Police Officers.

Steve

[Craig H]

Just a thought….

Pierre said the killer new Thomas Bowyer by coincidence. Could it be through arresting Bowyer or seeing him in court?

Does anyone have access to police records to determine if Thomas Bowyer was arrested?

Craig

[Craig H]

City of London Police ?

I’m still thinking about Pierre’s suspect being a Police Official (yes – we all get obsessed about different things).

In November , Pierre said “Well, the person I have found wasn´t a Scotland Yard official”.

When he announced his suspect was a police official, he wouldn’t answer specific questions about whether this person worked for Scotland Yard.

In December he posted “the question was "Was he a Scotland Yard official" (right?) and I just wrote that I can not answer that question."

I’m starting to think his first answer was correct.

There were three police forces in London in 1888 – the Metropolitan Police (Scotland Yard), the City Of London Police (covering the central London area) and the Railway Police.

From what I have read, there was high tension between the senior executive of Scotland Yard and COLP.

It’s possible (although hard to believe) that COLP would commit the murders to humiliate and embarrass Scotland Yard (which is what happened). This led to the Scotland Yard Leadership change – Monro replacing Warren – and a more professional police force.

I was struggling with how any Scotland Yard Police official would want to humiliate their own force. It makes more sense if it was COLP.

The COLP had a Police Commissioner, 1 Chief Superintendent, 1 Superintendent, 14 Inspectors, 92 Sergeants, and 781 Constables. Does anyone have the names of the Superintendents and Inspectors ?

From Pierre’s clue his suspect lived in high status homes and had resources, and wasn’t a police constable, so it’s likely to be someone in a more senior role.

From what I’ve found:
Commissioner Colonel James Fraser was wealthy but 74,
Chief Superintendent Major Henry Smith was 53, well educated, was promoted to Commissioner and knighted
Superintendent Alfred foster was 62 and lived in police accommodation
Head of Detectives James McWilliam was 52 and lived in police accommodation
Inspector Edward Collard was 42 and lived in police accommodation

Craig

[Elamarna]

I’m still thinking about Pierre’s suspect being a Police Official (yes – we all get obsessed about different things).

In November , Pierre said “Well, the person I have found wasn´t a Scotland Yard official”.

When he announced his suspect was a police official, he wouldn’t answer specific questions about whether this person worked for Scotland Yard.

In December he posted “the question was "Was he a Scotland Yard official" (right?) and I just wrote that I can not answer that question."

I’m starting to think his first answer was correct.

There were three police forces in London in 1888 – the Metropolitan Police (Scotland Yard), the City Of London Police (covering the central London area) and the Railway Police.

From what I have read, there was high tension between the senior executive of Scotland Yard and COLP.

It’s possible (although hard to believe) that COLP would commit the murders to humiliate and embarrass Scotland Yard (which is what happened). This led to the Scotland Yard Leadership change – Monro replacing Warren – and a more professional police force.

I was struggling with how any Scotland Yard Police official would want to humiliate their own force. It makes more sense if it was COLP.

The COLP had a Police Commissioner, 1 Chief Superintendent, 1 Superintendent, 14 Inspectors, 92 Sergeants, and 781 Constables. Does anyone have the names of the Superintendents and Inspectors ?

From Pierre’s clue his suspect lived in high status homes and had resources, and wasn’t a police constable, so it’s likely to be someone in a more senior role.

From what I’ve found:
Commissioner Colonel James Fraser was wealthy but 74,
Chief Superintendent Major Henry Smith was 53, well educated, was promoted to Commissioner and knighted
Superintendent Alfred foster was 62 and lived in police accommodation
Head of Detectives James McWilliam was 52 and lived in police accommodation
Inspector Edward Collard was 42 and lived in police accommodation

Craig

Hi Craig,

I think that is the obvious move.

Your research on the Met Officers which you provided to me was very good and covered most of the known history of the officers.

I hope you don't mind me providing a few comments on the research.

Basically officers of all ranks of the assumed aged range were checked for education, social background, housing.

Taking Crag’s research a scoring system was applied based on the clues Pierre had given:


They were not mentally il

Lived in high status home for a time.

No Photo.

Known reason for a hatred of police/establishment.

Reason for killings to stop.

Name Jack could have link.

Did not live local.

Local knowledge.

Educated.

Known in 1888, but not now, although it is not clear if this is not known to public or to Ripper research.

I also applied two other criteria:

Age range 30 – 50, no higher age as been hinted at an 50 seemed reasonable.

That the killer was physically fit.


This gave a score of 12, many officers scored between 5 and 7.

Several are interesting due to the lack of knowledge that is known about them, one such being Roberts.

Littlechild scores reasonably well, but is well known now in Ripper circles at least.

One Officer did score over 75%, substantially higher than any other, MACNAGHTEN.

However Pierre had already said it was not this Officer, who was not in the Force at the time.

Craig has done some sterling research, as I have said before.

I hope that he may write this up in full at some stage a post on the board, it is really invaluable when looking at Police

regards

Steve

[Craig H]

Major Henry Smith

Hi Steve,

Interesting to read this.

The only person I found from City of London Police who could be a fit is Major Henry Smith.

He was born in 1835 (so 53 y.o in 1888) in Dumfries-shire, Scotland.

He was well educated (Edinburgh Academy and Edinburgh University) before joining the army.

In 1881 Census, he is a Captain in Suffolk Artillery Brigade Militia, before joining the police force.

He was quickly promoted and became the Acting Commissioner COLP during the Ripper Murders as Commissioner James Fraser was on leave at time of Eddowes murder.

Smith then served as Commissioner, City of London Police from 1890 – 1901 and was later knighted for his service.

Interestingly, he never married.

In 1891 Census he is listed as a “visitor” with Frances Dickson (a 55 y.o widow of William Dickson, solicitor & JP) and her children and servants. The address is 42 Queens (Gate) Garden, in Paddington, in what could certainly be called a high status home.

In 1901, Smith is still living with Frances, her children and servants (still listed as a “visitor”) at 95 West End Ave, Pinner (another high status home).

I haven’t yet found him in 1911 Census. He died in 1921.

The other interesting finding from Ancestry research he had two brothers - both civil engineers, and neither married.

In the 1851 Census, Hamilton Lee Smith (born 1830) and George Freer Smith (born 1827) are living together in London.

Hamilton died in 1889. Last finding of him was 1871 Census when he was 41 y.o, and not married. Haven’t yet found George after 1861 Census when he was 34 y.o and not married.

How many points would Smith get on your scale ?

I had previously dismissed Smith as the photo of him on the Casebook site is of an older man wearing a wealthy top hat. However, he may have been a “young” and fit 53 y.o. in 1888.

The only other person that could be an option is Andrew Charles Howard, who was a senior police official with Metropolitan Police.

I’ll try to find Smith’s book “From Constable to Commissioner”.

Is there anything else about Smith (or Howard) that could fit the profile ?

All the best

Craig

[Elamarna]

Craig,
On my scale he gets 5.5 to six.

The area he fails in is having obvious reason to attack the Met. There may well have been friction but surely must be more than that to do murders and no reason to stop obvious.

He scores the same as Little child, worse than Sagar and MM.

Steve

[Craig H]

Hi Steve

The two clues that I think are more important than others are:

"Well educated" - Pierre has previously talked about the importance of university education. Therefore I don't think someone who was trained in the military would count as well-educated. This would then limit the list to just Alexander Bruce, Henry Smith, James Monro, Melville MacNaghten and Robert Sagar.

"Lived in high status homes" - Pierre has implied his person was wealthy. While many of the Police Officials lived in good homes and areas, those who lived in higher status homes were Bruce, Smith, Monro, Macnaghten, and those from senior army ranks such as Roberts, Andrew Charles Howard, Colonel Edward Riley Colbirne Bradford, Captain George Henry Dean, Captain Arthur Cyprian Knollys , Colonel Bolton James Alfred Monsell.

As mentioned before, Pierre was reluctant to confirm his person was from Scotland Yard. The obvious conclusion for most people is a "police official" must mean "Metropolitan Police / Scotland Yard". His reluctance to confirm this suggests that the person is not Scotland Yard, which must mean "City of London Police" or "Railway Police".

Which brings me to Major Henry Smith (COLP) or Macnaghten (who was not yet working for Scotland Yard during the murders).

Craig

[DJA]

Hi Craig H !

Major Henry Smith was not Jack the Ripper,however he quite likely knew who he was.

Being appointed Chief Superintendent of the City Police in 1885,may have given his first cousin Robert Louis Stevenson a model for Inspector Newcomen in his famous novella.

[Craig H]

Hi DJA

Good to hear from you.

What part of Aus mountain range are you ? Beautiful day in Sydney - cicadas out in full force !

I'm not pushing Henry Smith as JTR. I'm just curious about who Pierre has as his person, as he is saying he has something in writing which demonstrates a link.

Enjoy your Sunday

Craig

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve

The two clues that I think are more important than others are:

"Well educated" - Pierre has previously talked about the importance of university education. Therefore I don't think someone who was trained in the military would count as well-educated. This would then limit the list to just Alexander Bruce, Henry Smith, James Monro, Melville MacNaghten and Robert Sagar.

"Lived in high status homes" - Pierre has implied his person was wealthy. While many of the Police Officials lived in good homes and areas, those who lived in higher status homes were Bruce, Smith, Monro, Macnaghten, and those from senior army ranks such as Roberts, Andrew Charles Howard, Colonel Edward Riley Colbirne Bradford, Captain George Henry Dean, Captain Arthur Cyprian Knollys , Colonel Bolton James Alfred Monsell.

As mentioned before, Pierre was reluctant to confirm his person was from Scotland Yard. The obvious conclusion for most people is a "police official" must mean "Metropolitan Police / Scotland Yard". His reluctance to confirm this suggests that the person is not Scotland Yard, which must mean "City of London Police" or "Railway Police".

Which brings me to Major Henry Smith (COLP) or Macnaghten (who was not yet working for Scotland Yard during the murders).

Craig

Craig,

I made a mistake on my score for Smith it should be 7 out of 12. this would put him in the top tier so to speak, level with Sagar and Bruce and just ahead of Monro but below MM.

those who present an obvious reason for the humiliation of the Police have been discounted by Pierre as i understand it.
I have been unable to find a reason for Bruce, that of course does not mean there is not one.
While there was friction between COLP and Met, Pierre has suggested that it was far deeper than that and was personal in nature, if so i have been unable to find any information on such.


I think that we really will struggle to proceed any further until Pierre is ready to tell.

Steve

[Elamarna]

Dear DJA,

when you say he quite likely knew who he was, can i ask do you mean knew for sure or suspected.

it just that I am interested in the clues you have given on your idea.

regards

Steve

Hi Craig H !

Major Henry Smith was not Jack the Ripper,however he quite likely knew who he was.

Being appointed Chief Superintendent of the City Police in 1885,may have given his first cousin Robert Louis Stevenson a model for Inspector Newcomen in his famous novella.

[Mayerling]

Hi Craig H !

Major Henry Smith was not Jack the Ripper,however he quite likely knew who he was.

Being appointed Chief Superintendent of the City Police in 1885,may have given his first cousin Robert Louis Stevenson a model for Inspector Newcomen in his famous novella.

Hi DJA,

I did not know that Robert Louis Stevenson and Major Smith were cousins. Interesting connection there.

Jeff