The profession of Jack the Ripper.

[GUT]

Hi GUT

I'm not sure. I thought a journalist created the name.

I'm just following the clues Pierre left. I know you're sceptical of what he's saying (and you may be right) .... I'm just following through on what he said. I get a bit persistent on these things ! I don't like unfinished business.

Would be good to find out who his suspect is so we can close this out, or dismiss the idea

Craig

I understand, I've already dismissed his ideas, if they had anything to them, he wouldn't have played games.

I also place no credence in the "clues" he left as they kept changing.

Just my opinion.

[GUT]

However have you looked if any of the police were orphans?

[Elamarna]

Craig,

almost finished on the list, will give you my comments by Thursday pm.

Looking at your post I am drawn to one or two inconsistencies with Pierre's comments and clarification on several others.

1. In one post he says the Killer lived in high status housing, in another it was only for a short time.


2. Indeed he did say he knew Bowyer,

Suggestion thread, post 312

"Someone who knew Thomas Bowyer I believe. "

However when asked by Abby Normal if this was linked to the military and India in post 315 on the same thread we had the following exchange:

Abby Normal:

"thanks Pierre
but why Bowyer? was it his connection as former military in India?"

Pierre:

"He knew Bowyer from Whitechapel but it happened by coincidence."


This would appear to rule out a link by military service.
Perhaps more interestingly it suggests the suspect spent a good deal of time in Whitechapel to be able to get to know Bowyer; this is despite telling us that he did not live in the area, did he therefore work in the area regularly instead

3. He wanted to make the police look foolish, actually Pierre has gone much further than that, he has said that it was not only the Police but the Lord Mayor of London and by default the City of London Establishment he wanted to get at.
And that the reason was more than just a slight or the ignoring of himself by those in Authority.

4. The fact that he said it was not a constable I take with the proverbial pinch of salt. It was stated categorically that the suspect was not a Scotland Yard Official, which he later equated to a Police Officer in a reply to me.
Eventually of course we were told that the suspect was indeed a Police official/officer after all.

I may be wrong, but i am sure Pierre said he had not seen a photo of his suspect, I do not believe he said sketch.
Now it is possible that he includes one with the other and sees no difference, however if he means PHOTO it does put several closer to his lets call it "Profile" for want of a better word.

Spratling as far as I know is only shown in a sketch, if I am wrong about this could someone please point me in the direction of a photo.

Of course the high profile officer in the case for whom we have no confirmed photo is Abberline. Roberts should also be listed from your research.

We were told more than once, that the killer was unknown now, it was not clear if this was unknown in General Public terms or in Ripperology terms, but had been a public figure in 1888.

If it means the General public , the Film going and tv watching public may have heard of Abberline and possibly Reid. Otherwise almost anyone would fit the description
If however it alluded to the world of Ripperology it gives some much clearer indications.

We would be left with Bruce and Roberts from your list.
Now both fit the housing and education and both were in a position to be able to absent themselves without questions being asked while they committed the crimes.

A lower ranking Police officer would find that hard, indeed if they were a constable given the set beats and the checks by beat sergeants, it would be very difficult.
If they were say an inspector or sergeant the chances of them being seen by other officers and asked to account for themselves must have been high, especially as the beat sergeants were always out and about.


With both Bruce and Roberts we have no evidence for any reason for the killings to start, nor to stop and none for the use of the name Jack.Am fairly sure Pierre said "jack" had significance for the killer, not that it was necessarily a nickname.

Littlechild is obviously too well known, while Spratling is known by name, not much else is readily available on him, but you correctly list several clues that do not match.

One interesting thing I did note was that the denial of it being a Police Officer was given directly after Monro, MM and Warren had been named.

And again after you published a list of officers and both Bruce and Monro were spoken about, he said he was not going to discus the id of the suspect . That could be a coincidence but it could be his suspect was high up.

regards

steve

[Elamarna]

But do you honestly believe he chose the name?

My Dear GUT

no, not at all, not a chance he named himself.

I think Craig just summed it up well:

"Would be good to find out who his suspect is so we can close this out, or dismiss the idea"

IF Pierre does return and finally names a suspect, this research will put us in a much better position to evaluate the suspect.

Steve

[Elamarna]

However have you looked if any of the police were orphans?

GUT

what are you thinking?

steve

[GUT]

Or did any spend time in an Asylum?

[Rosella]

There were hints early in Pierre's postings that his suspect was well known in the 1880's and now, so that the British people (the British public) would be shocked and saddened by the revelation he would make. I remember distinctly reading that because I thought "Oh no, we are not going the Arthur Conan Doyle route, are we?" However, that seemed to be dropped later on.

I did notice the high status housing thing because one of the police officers on the list was born at a Home Farm building on a country estate, called something Hall Farm I believe. The building was substantial, but I believe I posted that it still was only a farmhouse. In a later post Pierre stated that his suspect had only lived in high status housing for a time. I suppose childhood is 'for a time'.

[Craig H]

Hi Steve

Interesting to read your post - will look at this again tonight.

I'm still thinking the Bowyer reference could be through the military. When Pierre said JTR knew Bowyer by co-incidence, I thought that could mean it was a co-incidence they were both in the same Artillery at the same time.

I'm not sure how Pierre would have known that JTR and Bowyer knew each other through informal meeting.

I keep reminding myself that Pierre's "data sources" can only be newspaper articles (e.g. Britishnewspaperarchive), an archive of police records (which I don't know if such a thing exists or if he has access to a certain database through Uni) or personal correspondence (unlikely unless JTR is a family member and documents passed down).

The most likely way Pierre would know JTR knew Bowyer is if he has a record they were both in the Artillery in India at the same time. (???)

The problem wiht Roberts is I can't find anything through Google on him.

Do you know anything about Spratling that could make him a suspect ?

All the best

Craig

[Craig H]

Just another thought on how the name "Jack" could have significance for Pierre's suspect....

I remember reading in Macnaghten's memoirs that he used to hunt jackels in Bengal, India. The phrase was something like "catching jacks".

While Pierre said his suspect was not Macnaghten, Roberts had served in India so maybe was involved in hunting jackels also. Maybe it was a common practice for British army officers in India ???

Craig

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve

Interesting to read your post - will look at this again tonight.

I'm still thinking the Bowyer reference could be through the military. When Pierre said JTR knew Bowyer by co-incidence, I thought that could mean it was a co-incidence they were both in the same Artillery at the same time.

I'm not sure how Pierre would have known that JTR and Bowyer knew each other through informal meeting.

I keep reminding myself that Pierre's "data sources" can only be newspaper articles (e.g. Britishnewspaperarchive), an archive of police records (which I don't know if such a thing exists or if he has access to a certain database through Uni) or personal correspondence (unlikely unless JTR is a family member and documents passed down).

The most likely way Pierre would know JTR knew Bowyer is if he has a record they were both in the Artillery in India at the same time. (???)

The problem wiht Roberts is I can't find anything through Google on him.

Do you know anything about Spratling that could make him a suspect ?

All the best

Craig

Was thinking the same with Bowyer, but Abby asked if the link was military and Pierre said, it was in FROM Whitechapel.

I interpreted it as he met him in Whitechapel, but it was a chance meeting, they did not move in the same circles, maybe were on nodding terms and saying hello to each other.

I am thinking, who could know Bowyer in Whitechapel but not live there.
A person working there, maybe a local Police Official?


The data sources are interesting, we are told they are in the public domain and include a confession, unsigned.
If these data sources exist and they are in the public domain then they are probably like the GOGMAGOG letter or they are known documents which are being interpreted as a confession.
However if they do exist we can not rule out that they are personal documents and not in the public Domain.

The lack of any documentation on Roberts suggests, no more, that he was not a high profile officer and probably not well known.

Spratling, he was named John, so may have been called Jack, he worked in the area, he was a Police Officer, he lived outside of Whitechapel, but that’s it, no evidence I am aware of at all.

steve

[Elamarna]

Just another thought on how the name "Jack" could have significance for Pierre's suspect....

I remember reading in Macnaghten's memoirs that he used to hunt jackels in Bengal, India. The phrase was something like "catching jacks".

While Pierre said his suspect was not Macnaghten, Roberts had served in India so maybe was involved in hunting jackels also. Maybe it was a common practice for British army officers in India ???manyis

Craig

Sophie Herfort in her play which claims to name MM as the Ripper actually uses that to say he named himself.
Actually a few of the ideas in her "theory" will fit Pierre's theory too. but as you say MM as been denied more than once.
Have you read the 2 threads at all?

However look at the senior officers, many of them served some time in India, prior to 1888.

I don't personally believe it, but it could be the source of the claim about the name.


steve

[SuspectZero]

If you are interested in the profession during the 19th century, you can start looking at Joseph Récamier.

Thanks, Sir John.

[Craig H]

"Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
thanks Pierre
but why Bowyer? was it his connection as former military in India?

FYI-personally I believe that there is a good chance the ripper was former military of some sort.

Posted by Pierre:
He knew Bowyer from Whitechapel but it happened by coincidence. I am sorry I can´t tell you more about this right now.

Regards Pierre"

Hi Steve

I think your first thought about the JTR-Bowyer link was right.

Above is Abby's post and then Pierre's reply. He didn't say "No" - ie. there was no connection with military. He didn't answer the question - just said they knew from Whitechapel.

You're right that they may have met informally at Whitechapel (as you and I could today). But then how would Pierre know that ? Even if he has some old personal correspondence from JTR (assuming there is a family link) then would that correspondence mention something as minor as JTR knew Bowyer.?

Based upon Pierre's previous communications (such as GOGMAGOG), I think Pierre assumed they knew each other because both were in Artillery.

Just a thought

Craig

[Craig H]

Here is the quote from Macnoaghten's memoirs on jackal hunting in India ...

"Jackal-hunting, too, with kangaroo hounds (and other dogs of sorts !) is
capital fun, and I have killed as many as seven before breakfast. A jackal would be sighted stealing away from a standing crop, some three hundred yards off. We galloped after him : the dogs followed the horses till the quarry came in their view, and then the question was whether they would catch the jack before he could reach the friendly jungle of the nearest village (generally about three-quarters of a mile away) and there find sanctuary. "


Craig

[Elamarna]

"Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
thanks Pierre
but why Bowyer? was it his connection as former military in India?

FYI-personally I believe that there is a good chance the ripper was former military of some sort.

Posted by Pierre:
He knew Bowyer from Whitechapel but it happened by coincidence. I am sorry I can´t tell you more about this right now.

Regards Pierre"

Hi Steve

I think your first thought about the JTR-Bowyer link was right.

Above is Abby's post and then Pierre's reply. He didn't say "No" - ie. there was no connection with military. He didn't answer the question - just said they knew from Whitechapel.

You're right that they may have met informally at Whitechapel (as you and I could today). But then how would Pierre know that ? Even if he has some old personal correspondence from JTR (assuming there is a family link) then would that correspondence mention something as minor as JTR knew Bowyer.?

Based upon Pierre's previous communications (such as GOGMAGOG), I think Pierre assumed they knew each other because both were in Artillery.

Just a thought

Craig

Dear Craig

I think we may need to agree to disagree on this one point.
Of course it's all down to interpreting Pierre's comment about knowing him from Whitechapel.
While I agree he does not say no, which he normally does to a question like Abby's he does say knew him from, not knew him in which to me says he had not met him before.

I do however agree on how Pierre would know this is intersting.
It does hold if the suspect is Roberts, but could also hold for anyone who may have been in India at same time. That is its an assumption by Pierre.

The only other alternatives are:

1. There is a diary. Highly unlikely I feel

2. Bowyer is named in a document , maybe a report of some sort about a different issue but either by the suspect of about him. This would imply the suspect is a local officer.

3. It is an invention, pure and simple

Of course no way of knowing which if any of the above are true

Steve