Social class of Jack the Ripper

[packers stem]

Why you are interfering in a conversation I am having with Pierre I cannot imagine. I did not ask him to do this exercise to satisfy my curiosity nor to hunt down the letter. I am trying to understand what he means by 'metaphorical language' in the context of a letter which supposedly identifies Mary Jane Kelly and her address, because on the face of it this makes no sense, unless he means a code or an anagram. In other words, I was trying to understand what he meant in a post he addressed to me, so perhaps I could ask you to restrain yourself from telling me what I can or cannot post.

If you feel that no one else should pass a comment then maybe you should take your private conversation to PM...it will make for a much more interesting thread for the rest of us. It's a forum, all members may contribute what they wish within the forum guidelines
At no point,if you care to check,did I try to tell you what you could or couldn't post. I said that I couldn't imagine why Pierre would want to carry out your request

[Craig H]

Hi Pierre

You've talked about two main motives which drove your suspect - the need to degrade his victims and humiliate the police. Which do you think was his greatest motivation ?

Also, you say he wrote to newspapers as a way to tease police, to see if they were smart enough to catch him. You also suggest your candidate was wealthy (if he could live in a home such as the photo he provided).

Did he therefore write in a newspaper which would be comfortable to his status (such as The Times) but less likely to be read by the police; or did he write to a newspaper likely to be read by all (such as Daily Telegraph, PMG or News Central) ?

I'm wondering if his "warning" to Police was missed as it was published in a paper they were less likely to read ?

Craig

[David Orsam]

At no point,if you care to check,did I try to tell you what you could or couldn't post.

In a post addressed to me you said "i think it's best to just forget about it all and wait". I neither wanted nor needed your advice but, if it was your own personal view, then I fail to understand why you posted at all. And in view of your latest suggestion that I should communicate with Pierre by PM rather than posting in this forum, can I politely ask you again to refrain from telling me what I can or cannot post in this forum.

[David Orsam]

I'm wondering if his "warning" to Police was missed as it was published in a paper they were less likely to read ?

Pierre, following on from Craig's question, can you clarify: was he warning the police or taunting them?

Did he expect the police to be able to understand what the letter meant?

If not, and the message was so hard to decipher that the intended victim's name and address could not be understood by any readers of the letter (including the police), then why did he not simply sign the letter in his own name

[Pierre]

Only, we now learn that he did not give 'the exact address' to one of the murder sites.

Yes David, you can rather easily find the following adress in this letter:

13 Millerīs Court.

It is not some other adress but the right one. So it is an exact adress, if you consider the fact that Mary Kelly was murdered there.

And of course it is written in a metaphorical style. If he had not done so, the police would have been there waiting for him. He wanted to give the police this clue to show them how stupid he thought they were.

This letter is not important for my theory but I think it is interesting since it answers a question that people have debated ever since the murder on Kelly: Why did he pose her hand the way he did?

Now, you can always (every time you hear some hypothesis) say that this is just a coincidence etc. But if you want an explanation you will have to try some new thinking. And if you do, you might be able to hypothetically answer questions.

Of course you can not just pick out sources you like and build theories on them. Your data has to have a high validity and reliability. For the source in quesiton here, I said I think it is rather low. But I still think it is worth discussing, since it can hypothetically explain important aspects of the crime scene.

But you have still missed something important. Perhaps I should try to write it again to you, Iīll wait and see if you find it.

Regards Pierre

[David Orsam]

And of course it is written in a metaphorical style. If he had not done so, the police would have been there waiting for him.

But this doesn't follow at all Pierre.

Anyone could have written a letter to a newspaper which included in plain English "13 Miller's Court" AND the name "Mary" AND the date of 9 November 1888 yet there would no reason for the police to have been at 13 Miller's Court on 9 November 1888 unless the letter contained a clear threat that a murder would take place at that address on that date.

Are you saying that the letter contained a threat in plain English that a murder would be carried out?

[David Orsam]

But you have still missed something important. Perhaps I should try to write it again to you, Iīll wait and see if you find it.

If I'm really missing something important, the onus is on you to tell me what it is, rather than have me play a guessing game with you.

[Pierre]

Hi Pierre

You've talked about two main motives which drove your suspect - the need to degrade his victims and humiliate the police. Which do you think was his greatest motivation ?

Also, you say he wrote to newspapers as a way to tease police, to see if they were smart enough to catch him. You also suggest your candidate was wealthy (if he could live in a home such as the photo he provided).

Did he therefore write in a newspaper which would be comfortable to his status (such as The Times) but less likely to be read by the police; or did he write to a newspaper likely to be read by all (such as Daily Telegraph, PMG or News Central) ?

I'm wondering if his "warning" to Police was missed as it was published in a paper they were less likely to read ?

Craig

Hi Craig,

as to the question of his motives I think it is very difficult to put one over the other. In a way I believe that the last one could have been the most important.

But I think you find these two motives strongly interacting in the following cases:

1. The double event when he managed to get both the Metropolitan police and the City police to come out hunting him. The GSG is also an important aspect of this and if he left a message in the City as well, it would only correspond to the MO that night.

2. Leaving the pieces of a victim in the new Scotland Yard building. It was an difficult place to reach so it must have been important to him.

3. The murder on Mary Kelly on Lord Mayorīs Day. The Lord Mayor called him "mad" and "a mad dog" etc in the papers and I believe he wrote back some time later.

Now to the question of the newspaper. The letter was published in two newspapers that were read by a lot of people. I canīt guess the likelihood of the police reading them. We will have to have statistics for that.

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

If I'm really missing something important, the onus is on you to tell me what it is, rather than have me play a guessing game with you.

Sure.

I was asking if you know the name of Queen Maryīs first cousin.

Regards Pierre

[David Orsam]

Sure.
I was asking if you know the name of Queen Maryīs first cousin.

Oh, I thought you said I had missed something important.

[David Orsam]

Now to the question of the newspaper. The letter was published in two newspapers that were read by a lot of people.

Can I ask how far in advance of Mary Jane Kelly's murder the letter was published? Are we talking years, months, weeks or days?

[Pierre]

Can I ask how far in advance of Mary Jane Kelly's murder the letter was published? Are we talking years, months, weeks or days?

Days.

[David Orsam]

Days.

Thank you.

[Mayerling]

Sure.

I was asking if you know the name of Queen Maryīs first cousin.

Regards Pierre

On the "Queen Mary and Lord Mayor" thread you mentioned "Bloody Mary", but correctly linked that nickname to Mary I of England herself. Her cousin, the Queen of Scotland and (briefly) France is Mary, Queen of Scots, but her nickname is not a popularly known one today - in fact I have never seen one mentioned. However, the nursery rhyme, "Mary, Mary, quite contrary...." is based on her, but I have hardly heard anyone refer to her as "Contrary Mary". That is the direction you might be going in, as you are still linking the picture of Mary of Scotland to the way Mary Kelly is pointing in the photograph.

On the other hand, Mary I of England had other cousins. Her cousin Philip or Felipe II of Spain was her husband as well. So was her chief advisor, Reginald, Cardinal de la Pole (is the nickname "Phil" or "Reg"??). And the Lord Mayor in the Tennyson verse play is not the same Lord Mayor as either of the two men who held the post in 1888. A matter of three hundred and thirty odd years difference there.

Jeff

[Pierre]

On the "Queen Mary and Lord Mayor" thread you mentioned "Bloody Mary", but correctly linked that nickname to Mary I of England herself. Her cousin, the Queen of Scotland and (briefly) France is Mary, Queen of Scots, but her nickname is not a popularly known one today - in fact I have never seen one mentioned. However, the nursery rhyme, "Mary, Mary, quite contrary...." is based on her, but I have hardly heard anyone refer to her as "Contrary Mary". That is the direction you might be going in, as you are still linking the picture of Mary of Scotland to the way Mary Kelly is pointing in the photograph.

On the other hand, Mary I of England had other cousins. Her cousin Philip or Felipe II of Spain was her husband as well. So was her chief advisor, Reginald, Cardinal de la Pole (is the nickname "Phil" or "Reg"??). And the Lord Mayor in the Tennyson verse play is not the same Lord Mayor as either of the two men who held the post in 1888. A matter of three hundred and thirty odd years difference there.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

No, I wrote about Queen Mary and published a picture of Queen Mary of Scots. Someone else wrote about the other queen. Please letīs not get the Marys mixed up here.

The point isnīt what we think but what the killer might have thought.

He used a reference to Tennyson, Tennyson wrote the drama Queen Mary, Elizabeth and the Lord Mayor appear in this drama. Whether we mean Queen Mary of Scots or "Bloody Mary", or the cousin Elizabeth or the half sister, or the Lord Mayor of the 16th Century or the one of 1888 is not relevant. They are interchangeable in his use of them as clues. And this is relevant.

If he did write this letter he wanted to use their names to taunt the police.

The killer can only have been interested in killing, mutilating and taunting the police. He cannot have been interested in the history of royalty.

He wanted to give the police information they could use to find him but he thought that he was superior and he wanted them to understand this.

Regards Pierre