Social class of Jack the Ripper

[DJA]

Kindly pull the door shut next time.

[packers stem]

What I really think is that the use of "Scooby Doo" methods of investigation, and the tendency to embrace spooky convoluted theories, will get us nowhere.

I suspect that throwing 20th century profiling,believing an invisible random local with top end surgical skill and night vision goggles and a piece of chalk was on the loose who picks out someone called Mary Kelly, then low and behold picks out another Mary Kelly some 6 weeks later to be something akin to the twilight zone so I'll take my chances with Scooby...

[DJA]

I'll take my chances with Scooby...

Hmm. Mysteries Five. Strangers In The Night.

[Harry D]

I suspect that throwing 20th century profiling,believing an invisible random local with top end surgical skill and night vision goggles and a piece of chalk was on the loose who picks out someone called Mary Kelly, then low and behold picks out another Mary Kelly some 6 weeks later to be something akin to the twilight zone so I'll take my chances with Scooby...

The majority of the medical men detected little to no surgical skill on the part of the killer.

Eddowes identified herself as 'Mary Ann Kelly' to the police, which was the name of her partner's estranged wife. If she only gave this name at the police station, how did the killer manage to obtain it and mistake her for the real Mary Kelly?

[packers stem]

The majority of the medical men detected little to no surgical skill on the part of the killer.

Eddowes identified herself as 'Mary Ann Kelly' to the police, which was the name of her partner's estranged wife. If she only gave this name at the police station, how did the killer manage to obtain it and mistake her for the real Mary Kelly?

Hi Harry
If she was using that name on release it is quite reasonable to suspect she had been using that name before arrest in the afternoon.

As for medical opinion at the time Wynne Weston-Davies gives a good run down of the inexperience of those who chose to ignore the medical skill in his book.Those experienced took the opposite view.
The circumventing of the navel (in complete and utter darkness if we choose to believe that minor miracle to be the case) is a bit of a giveaway.Those ripperologists who have surgical experience themselves seem to be convinced, I'm more than happy to go with them.
Not just Wynne Weston-Davies but Nick Warren also

[DJA]

Never knew John Kelly has a previous wife named Mary Ann.

There you go.

ROFL!

[Sam Flynn]

If she only gave this name at the police station, how did the killer manage to obtain it and mistake her for the real Mary Kelly?

Indeed, how could he mistake her anyway, given the significantly different physical attributes of both women? The skinny, mousy, 40-something Eddowes with her wiry thatch could hardly have been mistaken for the tall, buxom, 20-something MJK with her glorious mane of hair.

[Michael W Richards]

Indeed, how could he mistake her anyway, given the significantly different physical attributes of both women? The skinny, mousy, 40-something Eddowes with her wiry thatch could hardly have been mistaken for the tall, buxom, 20-something MJK with her glorious mane of hair.

Just a what if Sam.....what if the killer was looking for a Mary Kelly but didn't know what she looked like ? Ive always been curious about the very coincidental aspects of having a woman assumed to have been killed by a serial killer using variations of the name and address of the alleged next consecutive victim twice within her last 24 hours. As a matter of fact, it would seem it was twice on that same day.. Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street for the pawnbroker Saturday morning...according to the date on the ticket, and Mary Kelly of Fashion Street at Bishopsgate.

Or...what if the person assumed the woman he was killing was someone named Jane or Mary Kelly then finds out later that a real Mary Jane Kelly lived on 26 Dorset street. Might he assume that whatever the reason he wanted to kill Kate for...my contention is that she was silenced...was also a reason to kill that Mary, that Kate might have known this real Mary Kelly? And just maybe told her what got Kate killed for.

[Wickerman]

Just a what if Sam.....what if the killer was looking for a Mary Kelly but didn't know what she looked like ?

Hi Michael.

I honestly can't imagine anyone entering the overcrowded East End to look for one particular woman, without questioning dozen's, if not hundreds of people.
Yet no-one thought to mention an inquisitive stranger to the police, or press?

[curious4]

How did he know what time she'd be released from the cells? How did she, being drunk, make sure she didn't miss any presumed rendezvous? When she did ask the time, all she got by way of response was "too late for you to get another drink" - not particularly useful, if she'd arranged to meet up with her (putative) drinking partner.
For one thing, she had no home, so the question is moot. Secondly, whatever her reason, it almost certainly wasn't to meet someone at the corner of a square hundreds of yards away.

Church clocks? And she was given the time when she persisted.
We don't know where she met her killer. She was killed in Mitre Square, but could have walked there from anywhere.

Best wishes
C4

[Sam Flynn]

Church clocks? And she was given the time when she persisted.

Why should she have particularly cared what time it was? Some suggest that she had a pre-arranged meeting with some guy who, unbeknownst to her, would be her killer. Assuming she was drinking with this mystery man at, say, 6pm the previous day. Are we to believe that they agreed to part and meet up again at 1:30 the next morning? And that, having found herself taken in for drunkenness in the interim, she woke up and remembered that she must get out of the cell to make her appointment?

Sorry, but no matter which wacko scenarios one dreams up, the idea of her leaving the cells to honour an unwitting rendezvous with death is absurd.

[Michael W Richards]

Why should she have particularly cared what time it was? Some suggest that she had a pre-arranged meeting with some guy who, unbeknownst to her, would be her killer. Assuming she was drinking with this mystery man at, say, 6pm the previous day. Are we to believe that they agreed to part and meet up again at 1:30 the next morning? And that, having found herself taken in for drunkenness in the interim, she woke up and remembered that she must get out of the cell to make her appointment?

Sorry, but no matter which wacko scenarios one dreams up, the idea of her leaving the cells to honour an unwitting rendezvous with death is absurd.

Sam, we know she asked a few times for the time. Why should she care what time it was rather than what time she was getting out? And the rendezvous scenario was mentioned by the contemporary police, not just some renegade poster like myself.

A. Kate meets with people who know the person she intends to turn into the police to negotiate a more attractive fee than the reward was not to do so. They ply her with booze to find out what all she knows. they determine she knows too much, and agree to her request. They decide to meet her at say 1am, IN THE CITY not where patrols have been increased, outside Mitre, to take her to someone who will pay her the hush money. Instead they take her to her death.

B. Sometime later it is revealed that another woman named Mary Kelly on Dorset Street actually exists, they assume Kate must have known of this Mary since she used variations of it twice in 24 hours, and maybe she confided in this Mary about her plans to claim the reward. They decide to silence her too,...just in case.

Who are these people? Well...as you and I know there was a public hearing going on at that same place in time regarding the possible infiltration of Irish Self rule factions into Parliament, and the planning of political assassinations. Many people in that town had secrets. The Government as well as the revolutionaries. One spy was paid 5,000L to appear at the Commission...you know what that equates to in todays money...its huge.

Secrets were, and are, worth money...or sometimes worth killing for.

[curious4]

Why should she have particularly cared what time it was? Some suggest that she had a pre-arranged meeting with some guy who, unbeknownst to her, would be her killer. Assuming she was drinking with this mystery man at, say, 6pm the previous day. Are we to believe that they agreed to part and meet up again at 1:30 the next morning? And that, having found herself taken in for drunkenness in the interim, she woke up and remembered that she must get out of the cell to make her appointment?

Sorry, but no matter which wacko scenarios one dreams up, the idea of her leaving the cells to honour an unwitting rendezvous with death is absurd.

To be honest, the thought of her leaving the cells at all is absurd. She had a safe, warm and dry place to spend the night, with the prospect of a cup of tea and slice of bread in the morning (possibly). She must have had a very good reason to leave, and wanting to get a drink was unlikely. She had a healthy liver, so unlikely to be an alchoholic and the Bright's disease (if indeed there were signs of it, were more likely to have been caused by repeated UTIs. There is absolutely no proof that she prostituted herself, not even in veiled terms, such as "when she had no work she had to do the best she could". The manager of the lodging house stated that he had never known her sleep with anyone other than Kelly and it was a long trek down to Kent, with hard work at the end of it. Much easier to prostitute herself if she had wanted to.

The only logical explanation, as I see it, is that she was meeting someone and if she thought she knew who the killer was, someone who she hoped would help her get the reward for his capture. Sadly she was wrong.

Best wishes
C4

[Sam Flynn]

The only logical explanation, as I see it, is that she was meeting someone

The "only" logical explanation? There must be dozens more.

if she thought she knew who the killer was, someone who she hoped would help her get the reward for his capture.

... "if she thought she knew who the killer was", quite. I'm pretty sure she didn't.

[curious4]

The "only" logical explanation? There must be dozens more.
... "if she thought she knew who the killer was", quite. I'm pretty sure she didn't.

Must there? Come up with one :-)! The fact that whoever she met (and she seems to have trusted him - hand on chest) sliced her up, or led her to someone else who did, is a pretty good pointer that she was wrong!

Best wishes
C4