Who Is The Ripper? A Poll of Casebookers

[lynn cates]

pub

Hello John. Thanks.

Actually, Jacob MAY have been noticed in that state--at the pub.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman,

Only a very small minority of the victims (of the killers I cited) were "homeless". Some people might view sex work today as deserving of a very lowly "social" position - lowlier than that of their menially-employed murderers, according to you - but who's to say that the menially-employed prostitute serial killers in question would not have sought out prostitution as a money-earner, at some point, had they been women?

That is a very odd question, Ben, and one that must go without an answer.

I said that people like Ridgway and Hansen, in steady employment, with decent economical means at their disposal and with homes of their own, would be further up the social ladder than street prostitutes.

I thought that would go without questioning. But out here, nothing seemingly does. It all has to be explained.

Serialists who are comparable to prostitutes must be found at the rock bottom of society, because that is where we find street prostitutes. The social ladder is not built on income alone, there are steps on it that relate to how you make your money too. That is why the Prince of Wales is less likely to marry a top dollar prostitute than a princess.
To fond a comparison that works, we therefore need to turn to people like Ottis Toole, Henry Lee Lucas and Danny Rolling - vagrants, hoboes, drifters with no regular income and homes.

Once you start comparing prostitutes and their conditions of living to those of the lower middle class, you are out on very deep water. I think primarily the women posters out here with a clearer social perspective may find the suggestion very questionable. I know I do.

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

Actually, Jacob MAY have been noticed in that state--at the pub.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about that incident. I believe Taylor, Chappell and Fiddymont noticed a suspicious looking character in a pub. However, this was at 7am on the 7 September, almost 24 hours before Annie's murder. Moreover, the blood spots they noticed were not very extensive:narrow streak under right ear, spots on the back of his hand and dried blood between the fingers. Moreover, this might be consistent with someone who has been involved in a fight, which might explain the man's agitation.

He was also followed after leaving the pub, by Taylor, who indicated that he was in a bewildered state. However, if he noticed he was being followed he no doubt would have felt somewhat agitated.

Of course, the man was never identified.

[Ben]

Hi Fisherman,

Wouldn’t you be better off actually addressing the numerous and valid criticisms of your Crossmere theory, rather than trawling the boards taking issue with any point that might be construed as supporting an UnCrossmerian ripper, and pretending I’m the one whose opinions should be considered “questionable” to "female posters"? Just a suggestion.

Gary Ridgway found employment in what was essentially a menial “labouring” capacity, but the crucial difference between his position and that of the ripper’s is that the latter lived in the Victorian east end, where people employed in a similar capacity were apt to find themselves in destitute circumstances. Embark upon an unskilled labouring job in 1980s Washington State and you’ve a better-than-average chance of securing “decent economical means” and a “home of (your) own", but attempt the same thing in the 1880s east end and you’re likely to find yourself in a doss house without either of those things. The “social position” is the same in both cases, but the Victorian labourer is the worse off because of external factors entirely beyond his control.

The same is true of women who might have found themselves in impoverished circumstances in the late Victorian period, as opposed to thirty years ago. Your suggestion that a female prostitutes from the 1880s is the “social” equivalent of a modern-day male “hobo” similarly fails to embrace that vast difference in available opportunities for an 1880s “worker” (male or female), versus his/her counterpart 100 years later.

[Fisherman]

Ben: Hi Fisherman,

Wouldn’t you be better off actually addressing the numerous and valid criticisms of your Crossmere theory, rather than trawling the boards taking issue with any point that might be construed as supporting an UnCrossmerian ripper, and pretending I’m the one whose opinions should be considered “questionable” to "female posters"? Just a suggestion.

Actually, Ben, I can do both. But I take issue with your suggestion that I should trawl the boards to take issue with those who disagree about the carman theory, not least after having seen you step in whenever the word Hutchinson is mentioned.
A friendly piece of advice: mind your own business and let me mind mine.

Gary Ridgway found employment in what was essentially a menial “labouring” capacity, but the crucial difference between his position and that of the ripper’s is that the latter lived in the Victorian east end, where people employed in a similar capacity were apt to find themselves in destitute circumstances. Embark upon an unskilled labouring job in 1980s Washington State and you’ve a better-than-average chance of securing “decent economical means” and a “home of (your) own", but attempt the same thing in the 1880s east end and you’re likely to find yourself in a doss house without either of those things. The “social position” is the same in both cases, but the Victorian labourer is the worse off because of external factors entirely beyond his control.

Only Ridgway was not unskilled. Nowhere near. He was a very competent and skilled truck painter for Paccar Kenworth, a huge and renowned company. One of the latest times they figured in the press was when thet announced a 300 million dollar share repurchase.
It´s not a shoddy back-street company we are speaking of. Ridgway was effectively comparable to a Ford or Chrysler worker.
Once we check, we get it right.

The same is true of women who might have found themselves in impoverished circumstances in the late Victorian period, as opposed to thirty years ago. Your suggestion that a female prostitutes from the 1880s is the “social” equivalent of a modern-day male “hobo” similarly fails to embrace that vast difference in available opportunities for an 1880s “worker” (male or female), versus his/her counterpart 100 years later.

An 1880:s prostitute was fixed to society´s rock bottom. A prostitute today is fixed to society´s rock bottom.

If we want to look for a comparison, we look at the rock bottom of society, and not at the ones with a reasonably decent life cut out for them, like for instance a carman like Lechmere. In some respects, his situation mirrors Ridgways: an income, a home, family, food on the table, a long-standing employment with a large company.

The Ripper victims slept rough at times, they pawned their boots for a meal, they had to go searching for tricks in order to secure a lice-infested bed for the night.

I can only say it so many times, and I´ve grown tired by now: Gary Ridgway and Robert Hansen are NOT comparable to the rock bottom existences that are street prostitutes today.

[Ben]

“But I take issue with your suggestion that I should trawl the boards to take issue with those who disagree about the carman theory”

But I’m suggesting the precise opposite; that you shouldn’t do that, not that you “should”!

Why have you nothing to say on the “surgical skill” thread? Crossmere had no “surgical skill”, and yet there are people posting there, right now, insisting that the real ripper must have had some. That won’t do, surely? Hadn’t we better go over there and put them right? Or is the real enemy anyone who suggests the ripper might been a local itinerant from the same social group as his victims, despite that type of suspect being much closer to Crossmere than a “surgeon” could ever be?

“Only Ridgway was not unskilled. Nowhere near. He was a very competent and skilled truck painter for Paccar Kenworth, a huge and renowned company.”

No.

Tesco is a "huge and renowned company"; that doesn’t make the man who stacks the canned fruit at Orpington a “very competent and skilled worker” necessarily, any more than the “hugeness” or “renown” of Kenworth made Gary Ridgway one. He might have been a veritable Picasso with his spray paint for all I know, but that doesn’t negate the fact that spray-painting a truck is a relatively menial task (and that’s not to impugn the worth of spray-painters or shelf-stackers).

“Once we check, we get it right.”

You’d better check then, and more carefully next time.

“An 1880:s prostitute was fixed to society´s rock bottom. A prostitute today is fixed to society´s rock bottom.”

So you didn’t read a single word I wrote about the huge different between a working class labourer in 1980s west coast America, and his direct equivalent in 1880s east London?

No.

A truck painter like Ridgway would probably have found himself in a doss house at some point if he had lived and worked in the east end of London in 1888; ditto Shawcross, ditto Rifkin, ditto Wright, ditto Sutcliffe. Conversely, many of the women who found work as prostitutes, either regularly or temporarily, in the Victorian east end would probably not have had recourse to such work if they lived 100 years later in a less $hitty, less crowded part of the world. We’re talking about a time and place where “rock bottom” was relatively normal, which it would not have been in the times and places in which Ridgway committed his crimes.

[Wickerman]

Not wishing to start that debate again, but I can't quite reconcile the image of an "anonymous local loser" with someone who dresses up in expensive clothes and prominently displays his "thick gold watch chain" to go a-ripping at the weekend, not unless he wanted his murderous designs to be thwarted by the attention of muggers and plain-clothes coppers.

I suggest Ben, you could very easy come up with the reasonably well-dressed serial killer if you only took the time to research the issue.

Serial killers like:
Dr William Palmer.
Severin Klosowski
Dr Neill Cream
Andrew Bichel
John Rullhoff
Theo Durrant
H. H. Holmes
And yes we can add to this list manual & seasonal workers, what would be today called the working class, but strangely, I have yet to find any examples of serial killers inhabiting doss houses.

Would you care to put some effort into justifying your belief or are we going to let this pass like all the rest of your ill-founded arguments?

[Sherlock Holmes]

Wasn't H. H. Holmes An American killer?
God I hope anyone with the last name Holmes is not related to that P.O.S

Regards
Mr Holmes

[harry]

I would bet on Hutchinson.How much.Depends on the odds offered,and I doubt the odds would b e extravagant.Here was an unemployed labourer,whose appearance drew favourable comment.Could he have also been Blotchy? Possible.His story appears to absolve both,but his story was not proven.Short odds on,with double figures the next best.

[Shaggyrand]

Wasn't H. H. Holmes An American killer?
God I hope anyone with the last name Holmes is not related to that P.O.S

Regards
Mr Holmes

Yes, the first big American serial killer. Some people tried to suggest him as a Ripper suspect a little while back.His real name was Herman Webster Mudgett so folks with the name Holmes have nothing to worry about.
EDITED TO ADD: It's an increadibly interesting case, there are a few documentaries (HH Holmes- America's First Serial Killer was streaming on most of the international Netflix not long ago) and books on him (Devil in the White City still being the best I've read).

[Damaso Marte]

Yes, the first big American serial killer. Some people tried to suggest him as a Ripper suspect a little while back.His real name was Herman Webster Mudgett so folks with the name Holmes have nothing to worry about.
EDITED TO ADD: It's an increadibly interesting case, there are a few documentaries (HH Holmes- America's First Serial Killer was streaming on most of the international Netflix not long ago) and books on him (Devil in the White City still being the best I've read).

Yes about 10-15 years ago somebody wrote a book on HH Holmes titled "Devil in the White City", which became extremely trendy among educated, upper middle class Americans. Everyone at least had it on their shelf. H.H. Holmes promptly became the trendy historic serial killer among that group, discussed at dinner parties and everything.

As with many historical figures, such as Vincent Van Gogh, we have no good records of what HH Holmes was doing in the fall of 1888, so theories flow freely...

[Pcdunn]

Re H. H. Holmes: Apparently a descendant (or relation) wrote a book saying Herman could well have been the Ripper, since some of the "Ripper" letters mailed in England seem to match Mudgett's handwriting and were on his stationery. Therefore, "Holmes" must have been in England at that time.

I personally think Holmes is a better fit for the killer of the dismembered corpses found around London. He specialized in charming young women and luring them into his "hotel" in Chicago. Some he married for their money, then killed them and sold their skeletons to doctors and medical schools. Very enterprising, Mr. Holmes was.

[Mayerling]

Wasn't H. H. Holmes An American killer?
God I hope anyone with the last name Holmes is not related to that P.O.S

Regards
Mr Holmes

You don't have to worry. The great detective is not a relative, as the killer's actual name was Herman Webster Mudgett. He changed the name to sound catchier.

As for your namesake, the story is that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle liked the then popular works of Dr. Oliver Wendell Holmes of Boston ("The Autocrat of the Breakfast Table", "The Height of the Ridiculous", "The Wonderful One Horse Shay", "The Chambered Nautilus"). That's why he chose "Holmes". The first name was supposed to be "Sherrinford" in the original version of "A Study in Scarlet", entitled "A Tangled Skein". This was reduced to "Sherlock", which may refer to some sporting figure that Doyle liked, or to one of two 18th Century divines who were popular. If "Sherrinford Holmes" and "A Tangled Skein" make you cringe, Watson's original name was "Orrin Sacker"!!*

Jeff

*When in the 1970s Gene Wilder made his comedy, "Sherlock Holmes' Smarter Brother" (co-starring Marty Feldman, Madelein Kahn, and Leo McKern as "Moriarty"), he and Feldman were "Sherrinford Holmes" (the younger brother of Sherlock and Mycroft) and "Sgt. Orrin Sacker" of Scotland Yard, who has a perfect memory for whatever he reads or hears.

[Mayerling]

Yes about 10-15 years ago somebody wrote a book on HH Holmes titled "Devil in the White City", which became extremely trendy among educated, upper middle class Americans. Everyone at least had it on their shelf. H.H. Holmes promptly became the trendy historic serial killer among that group, discussed at dinner parties and everything.

As with many historical figures, such as Vincent Van Gogh, we have no good records of what HH Holmes was doing in the fall of 1888, so theories flow freely...

I've read it. The book (which is quite interesting) is by Eric Larson. He has a series of books on historical moments or incidents, and the first was "Isaac's Storm" about the great, grim Galveston hurricane and tsunami that happened in 1900 and killed around 6,000 or 7,000 Americans, making it our worst natural disaster.

"The Devil in the White City" is centered on the 1893-94 "World Columbia Exposition" in Chicago (the fair grounds were called the "White City" because it was the first American World's Fair lit by electric bulbs at night, and the buildings were of a white hue). This World's Fair introduced the hot dog, the Ferris Wheel, and many exhibits inside it or outside it (where ragtime was first heard by many Americans). It was opened by Mayor Carter Harrison Sr. in 1893 to celebrate the four hundred year anniversary of Columbus' first voyage (actually you will notice it was a year late). Among those involved in the construction of the buildings and landscaping were Louis Sullivan (credited by many with inventing the concept of the modern skyscraper, and Frederick Law Olmstead, who was responsible in large part for New York City's Central Park and Brooklyn's Prospect Park, and the grounds of Frederick Vanderbilt's mansion of "Biltmore" in North Carolina. Holmes gets involved because of his opportunism as a business crook, mingled to his sadism. He builds his "hotel" to take care of tourists - and many will disappear in what becomes known as his "murder castle". The book also deals with a separate murder case - the assassination of Mayor Carter Harrison Sr. on the day the fair closed, by a disappointed office seeker named Patrick Eugene Pendergast. Although most likely crazy, Pendergast would be convicted and hanged. His defense attorney never lost another murder case - this was Clarence Darrow's first case.

Other books by Larson include one on the development of wireless radio, by Marconi and ties it's development with the collapse of the marriage of Belle and Hawley Crippen, her murder, and Crippen's capture with Ethel Le Neve due to wireless. More recently Larson wrote a book (this being the centennial) on the torpedoing of the Lusitania.

Jeff

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I believe whoever killed Kelly, was named Joe. so we have Barnett, Fleming. or hundreds of others.?
Regards Richard.