Who Is The Ripper? A Poll of Casebookers

[Mayerling]

Canonical suspects: James Kelly

Non canonical: Johann Otto Hoch

Wow, what a long-shot - the "Bluebeard of the Stockyards", Mr. Hoch (executed 1905). You've aroused my curiosity - why Hoch (usually a poisoner, but so are Cream and Chapman). Why not stretch a bit and change sex for Jack to "Jill the Ripper" - choose Belle Gunness! She did slaughter pigs for a living.

Jeff

[Sally]

What makes you think the killer habitually frequented doss houses and casual wards?

What makes you think he didn't? Oh... wait....

In all seriousness, I think it likely that the killer belonged to the same social group as his victims - and that puts him in the poor relief system and in the doss houses.

Not to worry though, that only narrows the culprit down to one in a million or so - always assuming he or she were London-based.

[Fisherman]

What makes you think he didn't? Oh... wait....

In all seriousness, I think it likely that the killer belonged to the same social group as his victims - and that puts him in the poor relief system and in the doss houses.

Not to worry though, that only narrows the culprit down to one in a million or so - always assuming he or she were London-based.

Ok. Then why do you predispose that the killer belonged to the same social group as his victims? Very many killers of prostitutes come from a somewhat higher social position, such as Ridgway and Hansen, for example.

So is it just a hunch from your side, or do you have anything - evidence, statistics, parallel examples - to lean against?

[John G]

Hello John.

". . . such an individual would, in all likelihood, be far too disorganized to avoid getting caught."

Right you are. And PC Cracknell made the pinch.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Ah, I was thinking that he would probably get caught either during the commission of the crime or in its immediate aftermath, I.e whilst covered in blood and gore. Of course, there is the Napper precedent -he committed an horrific murder in a public park without being noticed, despite the fact he would have been covered in blood-but there were also organized elements to his crimes (apart from schizophrenia he was also diagnosed with Aspergers.)

[Ben]

Fisherman,

Prostitute serial killers Ridgway, Shawcross, Wright and Sutcliffe were all menially-employed working class men who spent a lot of time socially with prostitutes. They did not occupy a "somewhat higher social position" than their victims.

[Patrick S]

Fisherman,

Prostitute serial killers Ridgway, Shawcross, Wright and Sutcliffe were all menially-employed working class men who spent a lot of time socially with prostitutes. They did not occupy a "somewhat higher social position" than their victims.

Good point, Ben. It will be lost on Christer, though. He constantly scans these boards for any post that may contain opinions that do not agree with his silly, disproved, laughable, foolish, absurd, yet wildly entertaining for its comedic properties, Lechmere theory/Mizen Scam ( ).

[Jon Guy]

Of course, there is the Napper precedent -he committed an horrific murder in a public park without being noticed, despite the fact he would have been covered in blood-but there were also organized elements to his crimes (apart from schizophrenia he was also diagnosed with Aspergers.)

Hi John

There was Rachel Nickell`s son, who witnessed the whole thing and was left unharmed (physically) - sounds disorganised to me.

Maybe this was due to the boy been 2 years old and Napper didn`t worry about him being a witness ?

A year later he would smother to death the 4 year old daughter of victim Samantha Bisset. Perhaps, the reports that young Alex Nickell may be able to help police with a description of his mum`s killer had compounded poor Jasmine Bisset`s fate.

But Napper does seemed to have "lost it" during the horrific murder of Sam Bisset, because a neighbour recalls hearing 2 different voices coming from her house at the time of the attack, and detectives believe it was Napper talking to another personality of himself (Jekyll and Hyde).

[Ben]

Good point, Ben. It will be lost on Christer, though. He constantly scans these boards for any post that may contain opinions that do not agree with his silly, disproved, laughable, foolish, absurd, yet wildly entertaining for its comedic properties, Lechmere theory/Mizen Scam ( ).

Thanks, Patrick.

I'm in awe at the sheer amount of time Fisherman must be compelled to spend here if he's willing to both defend his theory at great length (which, in view of the frequency and logicality of the criticisms, would seem an insoluble task) and take the "fight" to other threads. I'm exhausted just thinking about it!

[John G]

Hi John

There was Rachel Nickell`s son, who witnessed the whole thing and was left unharmed (physically) - sounds disorganised to me.

Maybe this was due to the boy been 2 years old and Napper didn`t worry about him been a witness ?

A year later he would smother to death the 4 year old daughter of victim Samantha Bisset. Perhaps, the reports that young Alex Nickell may be able to help police with a description of his mum`s killer had compounded poor Jasmine Bisset`s fate.

But Napper does seemed to have "lost it" during the horrific murder of Sam Bisset, because a neighbour recalls hearing 2 different voices coming from her house at the time of the attack, and detectives believe it was Napper talking to another personality of himself (Jekyll and Hyde).

Hi Jon,

Yes, of course in addition to the murders he was suspected of being the Green Chain Rapist and may have committed as many as 106 offences.

Regarding organisation, he kept a A-Z which was marked with thick black dots on the maps marking the location of assaults, or surveillance points where he could spy on intended victims without being seen- he spied on Samantha Bisset and her boyfriend before breaking in. I believe the murder location was also marked on the map, suggesting a degree of planning and organisation.

But, of course, as you point out the Nickell murder itself was very disorganized, I.e. she was assaulted in a public park, including being stabbed 49 times and her throat slit, and Napper must therefore have left the scene covered in blood. (I consider this attack to be very reminiscent of the assault on Tabram).

In fact dozens of people were criss-crossing the common at the time, including the Commissioners own wife, which clearly illustrates how it's possible for a determined killer, even after committing a disorganized murder, to avoid detection (I believe his psychiatrist said he would have felt invulnerable.)

I think it reasonable to conlude, therefore, that Napper's crimes contained both organised and disorganized elements.

[Fisherman]

Fisherman,

Prostitute serial killers Ridgway, Shawcross, Wright and Sutcliffe were all menially-employed working class men who spent a lot of time socially with prostitutes. They did not occupy a "somewhat higher social position" than their victims.

I named Ridgway and Hansen. I did not name Shawcross, Wright and Sutcliffe. You did, for some reason.
But out of these men, I would only put Shawcross on par with a street prostitute, socially.
The others were men with jobs and steady incomes and a home.

That is not the ordinary life for street prostitutes, who are often homeless drug addicts. You may be aware of this reality.

Whether the Ripper would have come out of the same social sphere as his victims is another question altogether. And that was what Sally proposed. I am interested to hear why.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon,

Yes, of course in addition to the murders he was suspected of being the Green Chain Rapist and may have committed as many as 106 offences.

Regarding organisation, he kept a A-Z which was marked with thick black dots on the maps marking the location of assaults, or surveillance points where he could spy on intended victims without being seen- he spied on Samantha Bisset and her boyfriend before breaking in. I believe the murder location was also marked on the map, suggesting a degree of planning and organisation.

Yes, I forgot about his "maps", John.
I`d agree with organised.

[Wickerman]

Fisherman,

Prostitute serial killers Ridgway, Shawcross, Wright and Sutcliffe were all menially-employed working class men who spent a lot of time socially with prostitutes. They did not occupy a "somewhat higher social position" than their victims.

Hi Ben.

You have to admit, with no doss-houses to make the comparison it is pretty subjective of you to compare a man who has a regular job, be it laboring or assembly work, with dossers of no regular employment in the late 19th century.

Contrary to what you may believe, a simple laborer of today, married or single, with his own car, or bus/train pass, house - rented or bought, bank account, and credit cards, is certainly higher up the social ladder than the common lodging-house occupant of the late 19th c. East End.
And I know that you know the 19th century male who chose to socialize with prostitutes came from every level of society.

We have some homeless people around town here, as with all big cities, they are possibly the nearest comparison we have today to the common dosser of the late 19th century.

I don't recall too many homeless men turning into serial killers.

[Ben]

Hi Jon,

Your outdated, notorious preference for an educated, higher class of ripper suspect renders you quite unsuitable to lecture others on "subjective" reasoning, but I thought I’d address your points anyway:

Contrary to what you may believe, a simple laborer of today, married or single, with his own car, or bus/train pass, house - rented or bought, bank account, and credit cards, is certainly higher up the social ladder than the common lodging-house occupant of the late 19th c. East End.

I’ve never heard such nonsense.

According to your argument, Prince Harry is “certainly higher up the social ladder” than the Prince Regent and future George IV because the latter didn’t own a mobile phone or television in the early 19th century.

A “simple labourer of today” is the direct equivalent of a “simple labourer of back then”, and a simple labourer of today, benefitting from the trappings of modernity (i.e. bank account, credit cards, car etc), would have had none of those things were he to be transported back in time to 1888 to occupy the same menial occupation; as such, he might have been compelled to seek out a lodging house, in the same way that known labourers regularly did in the late Victorian London east end.

It is beyond preposterous to suggest that the average resident of an 1888 common lodging house was the equivalent of a homeless person in 2015. These establishments were occasionally frequented by clerks, and were even vetted by the doormen or deputies to ensure that the occupant-hopefuls were employed at the time of their initial registration. The Victoria Home for Working Men, for example, catered for exactly that type of person – otherwise they would have called themselves the Victoria Shelter for Homeless Vagrants.

[Ben]

Hi Fisherman,

Only a very small minority of the victims (of the killers I cited) were "homeless". Some people might view sex work today as deserving of a very lowly "social" position - lowlier than that of their menially-employed murderers, according to you - but who's to say that the menially-employed prostitute serial killers in question would not have sought out prostitution as a money-earner, at some point, had they been women?

[J6123]

1) the Polish Jew Anderson says was definitely the killer.

2) no need.