Jack the Ripper is an extremely rare serial killer

[Observer]

Yup-I guess It has to come down to what victim is more likely to be a ripper "copy cat" and the more I think of it the more I favor Ellen Bury as the copy cat and Mackenzie as the real deal.

One reason why is because she was found with the skirt hiked up, exposing the mid section, like Tabram and several of the others.

but quite honestly it could be the other way around. who knows.

The MO, plus the throat cut, tips it in favour of it being a JTR murder for me. If you were going to "imitate" a Ripper murder, and you had already stalked, then engaged, then cut the throat of a prostitute, I can not see why you would fail to go the whole hog and mutilate your victim ala JTR. In my mind, in McKenzie we have a watered down, Ripper at work.

[Elamarna]

Thanks for you response, Elamarna.



I'd beg to differ here, actually.

The only reason I regard Bury as the best suspect is down to verifiable and empirical facts. He was a killer who had a similar signature to the Ripper. He inflicted post-mortem injuries on his victim, targetting the abdomen and sexual organs. Furthermore, he can be placed in the East End during the Ripper scare and he left not long after the last 'canonical' victim. Objectively speaking, that puts him head and shoulders above any other named suspect.

Kosminski was referred to by several senior policeman, and possibly was identified by a witness, but there is still no proof that he was anything other than a local loony.

But the point is the injuries are very different!

We will disagree.

Cheers


Steve

[Observer]

It's a West Midlands accent (known as The Black Country due to what it was like during the Industrial Revolution.) Apparently when Queen Victoria used to pass in a train she'd have the curtains of her carriage drawn because it looked so horrible! It's changed......a bit!

In a car, I'm about 20-30 minutes from Wolverhampton (Eddowes) and Stourbridge (Bury.)

I even had a thought about the name Frank Carter on the pawn ticket in Eddowes possession but I think that someone found the 'actual' Carter so I think that little 'suggestion' has to be dumped!

It's thought Eddowes lived in London between the ages of 6 to at least 18, perhaps longer. It's anyone's guess as to what her accent was.

[Abby Normal]

It's a West Midlands accent (known as The Black Country due to what it was like during the Industrial Revolution.) Apparently when Queen Victoria used to pass in a train she'd have the curtains of her carriage drawn because it looked so horrible! It's changed......a bit!

In a car, I'm about 20-30 minutes from Wolverhampton (Eddowes) and Stourbridge (Bury.)

I even had a thought about the name Frank Carter on the pawn ticket in Eddowes possession but I think that someone found the 'actual' Carter so I think that little 'suggestion' has to be dumped!

sounds like New Jersey

[Abby Normal]

Hi AN

There are those who believe that Bury was JTR, thus they rule out McKenzie, they have to. The thing is though McKenzies murder was far more consistent with a Ripper kill than Ellen Bury's were. Also, McKenzie was murdered slap bang in the middle of JTR territory. I also believe McKenzie was a Ripper victim, thus ruling Bury out.

Yup-I guess It has to come down to what victim is more likely to be a ripper "copy cat" and the more I think of it the more I favor Ellen Bury as the copy cat and Mackenzie as the real deal.

One reason why is because she was found with the skirt hiked up, exposing the mid section, like Tabram and several of the others.

but quite honestly it could be the other way around. who knows.

[Sam Flynn]

I can't recall if I mentioned it on here or the JTR Forum fairly recently but I've always wondered if Bury knew Eddowes? We have no possible way of knowing though. I just thought that if they had been in the same pub at the same time (which isn't particularly unlikely)

I'd say it was very unlikely. Bury lived in a different part of the East End and almost certainly frequented different pubs. He was a decade or so younger than Eddowes, and had lived in London for less than a year before Eddowes was killed. The chances of their paths crossing was rather remote.

PS: Don't knock your accent; I think it's one of the most musical in the British Isles

[Observer]

Possibly, but if any Whitechapel murder was a copycat, it was hers.

And by 'copycat' I simply mean an imitation, motives unknown.

Do you think it possible that Bury attempted to imitate JTR?

[Herlock Sholmes]

interesting take-never thought of that.

what is the accent?

It's a West Midlands accent (known as The Black Country due to what it was like during the Industrial Revolution.) Apparently when Queen Victoria used to pass in a train she'd have the curtains of her carriage drawn because it looked so horrible! It's changed......a bit!

In a car, I'm about 20-30 minutes from Wolverhampton (Eddowes) and Stourbridge (Bury.)

I even had a thought about the name Frank Carter on the pawn ticket in Eddowes possession but I think that someone found the 'actual' Carter so I think that little 'suggestion' has to be dumped!

[Observer]

I think so, but only in a somewhat cack-handed manner. My guess is he got drunk, strangled her, panicked and tried half-heartedly to "do a Ripper" on her. Perhaps having realised that he was a crap Ripper, he stopped his attempts at mutilating and stuffed her into a box while he worked out what to do next.
If so, he evidently wasn't as enthusiastic in his fetishism as his more extreme Whitechapel counterpart.

Precisely my view.

[Observer]

hi observer
good point. It really is a conundrum for me anyway in regards to bury/McKenzie/ripper because I think Mackenzie is more than likely a ripper victim, one of the main reasons being the post mortem mutilation to the abdomen. same as Ellen. so I'm confused on this one.

Hi AN

There are those who believe that Bury was JTR, thus they rule out McKenzie, they have to. The thing is though, McKenzies murder was far more consistent with a Ripper kill than Ellen Bury's were. Also, McKenzie was murdered slap bang in the middle of JTR territory. I also believe McKenzie was a Ripper victim, thus ruling Bury out.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I can't recall if I mentioned it on here or the JTR Forum fairly recently but I've always wondered if Bury knew Eddowes? We have no possible way of knowing though. I just thought that if they had been in the same pub at the same time (which isn't particularly unlikely) they might have noticed the others accent(the same terrible accent that I have in actual fact!) and graduated toward each other. If he then became a 'regular' maybe he was the one that she spoke about when she said that she knew the rippers identity? Pure conjecture of course but it's interesting to speculate now and then

interesting take-never thought of that.

what is the accent?

[John G]

My problem with Bury as a commuter killer, is why focus on just one tiny geographical area? In fact, after the police presence in Whitechapel was greatly increased it made perfect sense to target a much wider area.

Although Bury is still one of my favourite suspects I think it has to be odds on that JtR was a local Whitechapel perpetrator with local knowledge which, of course, accords with the geographical profile: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...d-experts.html

[Herlock Sholmes]

HI HS
He was said to have a horse and cart and delivered saw dust to pubs and restuarants-so not only could it explain how he knew WC well but also why it was easy for him to kill farther away from Bow.

Hi Abby,

I can't recall if I mentioned it on here or the JTR Forum fairly recently but I've always wondered if Bury knew Eddowes? We have no possible way of knowing though. I just thought that if they had been in the same pub at the same time (which isn't particularly unlikely) they might have noticed the others accent(the same terrible accent that I have in actual fact!) and graduated toward each other. If he then became a 'regular' maybe he was the one that she spoke about when she said that she knew the rippers identity? Pure conjecture of course but it's interesting to speculate now and then

[Sam Flynn]

Was he trying to pin it on the Whitechapel fiend all the way up in Scotland?

I think so, but only in a somewhat cack-handed manner. My guess is he got drunk, strangled her, panicked and tried half-heartedly to "do a Ripper" on her. Perhaps having realised that he was a crap Ripper, he stopped his attempts at mutilating and stuffed her into a box while he worked out what to do next.

Or did he just happen to share the same fetish as an infamous serial killer.

If so, he evidently wasn't as enthusiastic in his fetishism as his more extreme Whitechapel counterpart.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam
I see where your coming from on this but I'm with Harry on this one. yes not as bad as previous ripper victims, but post mortem mutilations to the abdomen with a knife nonetheless.

All but one were superficial cuts, and the one deep wound only extended for four inches. In Ripper terms, they scarcely warrant the "honour" of being called mutilations.

To me, it almost seems like the guy(if the ripper) just couldn't help himself.

Indeed, which is why these rather pathetic wounds to Ellen Bury don't resonate at all well with their being the Ripper's handiwork.