Francis Spurzheim Craig

[Prosector]

Hi
The quote "she came to a bad" end always amuses me. It is open to interpretation, obviously you believe it to be in the context of murder.

However it could also mean that she let herself go and finished up on the streets as a prostitute perhaps even homeless and was not murdered.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Totally agree. I have no idea what it meant but that is what he said. I am not suggesting that, of itself, it means that she was murdered.

Wynne

[Prosector]

Thank you for your response.

If George had died in 1851 and was still in the
house during the census, this might explain
why there was no age next to his name.

From your response, I guess we can surmise
that at least her brother John was aware of
Elizabeth's fate and that this was family knowledge
and was not something you've discovered in the
course of your research.*

Interesting.

[*Posted after your response to Robert.]

I've read the first few chapters and have seen
your family tree at Ancestry. The lack of census
records led me to speculate that it was created
from family records more so than official ones.

But there's one thing that I have not been able
to confirm, and that is, where was Elizabeth in 1881?
In the book you say that Elizabeth was Lady Vane's
lady's maid before 1881, but Elizabeth does not appear
on the 1881 census with the Vane-Tempests in Park Lane
nor is she listed at the house in Machynlleth
(listed as Londonderry House). She is not listed
with her mother, who by this time has married
David Evans (thanks for this Robert Linford) and
is living in Clopie in 1881 and by 1891 Anne is living
in Aberangell with husband David and daughter
Margaret Davies.

So without meaning to put you on the spot, do
you know why Elizabeth does not appear where
she should? Or do you know where she was in
1881?

Thanks again and I look forward to reading the
rest of your book.

Liv

Liv

I spent literally years trying to find Elizabeth in the 1881 census and examined hundreds of possible candidates throughout the UK. The most likely one is an Elizabeth Davies living in Park Street, Mayfair together with two other Welsh girls. She is described as a Lady's Maid, born North Wales (officially Merionethshire where Elizabeth was born was in North Wales) but her age is a little younger than Elizabeth's actual age (but she also did that in her marriage certificate). The other two girls are a cook and a housemaid. Park Street was just behind Londonderry House and often an aristocratic lady's personal servants (as opposed to household servants) lived separately from the rest of the servants. This ensured that tittle-tattle overheard in the lady's boudoir did not get discussed in the Servant's Hall.

To back this up I have also examined all of the Londonderry archives in the Durham Records Office. These include the household account books and servant records for Londonderry House at the time and it is clear that Lady Londonderry's own maid did not live in the house at the time although those of her daughters did.

Unless someone else can positively identify Elizabeth somewhere else I think that is the best candidate and, as her mother had also been Lady Londonderry's personal maid and was friendly with her during her life, I think it is the most likely identification.

Wynne

[pinkmoon]

The dates these murders were committed on tell me that our killer was visiting the area to commit these crimes also one question that always destroys a lot of "suspects" why did our killer stop I think he was either locked up or dead.

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes

As far as I know they had. The last one to be in contact with her was her brother Johnto (my grandfather). All he told his son, my father (or at least all he passed on to me) was that she had been a prostitute in London and had 'come to a bad end.' I think he suspected the worst but couldn't quite bring himself to voice it. I think that Walter Sickert suspected something similar and years later alluded to it in the Mrs Barrett pictures.

Wynne

Hi
The quote "she came to a bad" end always amuses me. It is open to interpretation, obviously you believe it to be in the context of murder.

However it could also mean that she let herself go and finished up on the streets as a prostitute perhaps even homeless and was not murdered.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Livia]

Yes, you are correct in most of those points. George Vane-Temopest was perhaps better known as the Marquess of Londonderry, one of the richest men in Europe. Elizabeth and Anne named their eldest son George after him and their second daughter Mary (probably) after the Marchioness whose names were Mary Cornelia. George died in 1851 of tuberculosis. His body was still in the house when the census was taken. John Weston( my grandfather), always known in the family as Johnto, was a master cabinet maker at Maples and is recorded at the Victoria and Albert museum. They have a note saying that he 'left of his own accord' in 1891. After that he took to drink and drifted downwards until he became a simple carpenter. I believe it was guilt at not having taken better care of his sister that may have precipitated that.

Wynne

Thank you for your response.

If George had died in 1851 and was still in the
house during the census, this might explain
why there was no age next to his name.

From your response, I guess we can surmise
that at least her brother John was aware of
Elizabeth's fate and that this was family knowledge
and was not something you've discovered in the
course of your research.*

Interesting.

[*Posted after your response to Robert.]

I've read the first few chapters and have seen
your family tree at Ancestry. The lack of census
records led me to speculate that it was created
from family records more so than official ones.

But there's one thing that I have not been able
to confirm, and that is, where was Elizabeth in 1881?
In the book you say that Elizabeth was Lady Vane's
lady's maid before 1881, but Elizabeth does not appear
on the 1881 census with the Vane-Tempests in Park Lane
nor is she listed at the house in Machynlleth
(listed as Londonderry House). She is not listed
with her mother, who by this time has married
David Evans (thanks for this Robert Linford) and
is living in Clopie in 1881 and by 1891 Anne is living
in Aberangell with husband David and daughter
Margaret Davies.

So without meaning to put you on the spot, do
you know why Elizabeth does not appear where
she should? Or do you know where she was in
1881?

Thanks again and I look forward to reading the
rest of your book.

Liv

[Robert]

Thanks Wynne.

[Prosector]

Wynne, had the family lost all contact with Elizabeth by 1888? After all, she was buried under a false name and under what was presumably the wrong religion.

Yes

As far as I know they had. The last one to be in contact with her was her brother Johnto (my grandfather). All he told his son, my father (or at least all he passed on to me) was that she had been a prostitute in London and had 'come to a bad end.' I think he suspected the worst but couldn't quite bring himself to voice it. I think that Walter Sickert suspected something similar and years later alluded to it in the Mrs Barrett pictures.

Wynne

[Limehouse]

Experts can be wrong, and what constitutes an expert in ripperology?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

In my opinion, and it's a humble opinion, someone like Donald Rumbelow, who has an in-depth knowledge of the crimes but who does not offer a definitive theory about the identity of the killer.

[Robert]

Wynne, had the family lost all contact with Elizabeth by 1888? After all, she was buried under a false name and under what was presumably the wrong religion.

[Prosector]

We only have Elizabeth McCarthy's statement that she parceled
up MJK's belongings and sent them to MJK's brother in the Scots
Guards. If this is so, how is it that a fish knife was auctioned off
at last year's conference, said to have formerly belonged to MJK
and had been in the McCarthy family for years?

There is a connection albeit tenuous, to the Scots Guards. The
book states that both Anne Davies and her daughter Elizabeth
worked for the Vane-Tempest family of Machynlleth. George
Vane-Tempest, the master of the house, had a brother Adolphus
who served with the Scots Fusilier Guards, which in 1877 by order
of Victoria, became the Scots Guards.

Edward and Anne Davies had no son named Henry. The only sons
listed on the census records are George, Edward and John Weston
Davies. It appears George may have died young, Edward was an
apprentice chemist in 1871 and John Weston, a cabinet maker,
married in 1891 and by 1911 was living in Wigan.

Yes, you are correct in most of those points. George Vane-Temopest was perhaps better known as the Marquess of Londonderry, one of the richest men in Europe. Elizabeth and Anne named their eldest son George after him and their second daughter Mary (probably) after the Marchioness whose names were Mary Cornelia. George died in 1851 of tuberculosis. His body was still in the house when the census was taken. John Weston( my grandfather), always known in the family as Johnto, was a master cabinet maker at Maples and is recorded at the Victoria and Albert museum. They have a note saying that he 'left of his own accord' in 1891. After that he took to drink and drifted downwards until he became a simple carpenter. I believe it was guilt at not having taken better care of his sister that may have precipitated that.

Wynne

[Trevor Marriott]

Of course there's a chance, but most experts agree that the killer must have had a fairly good degree of local knowledge.

Experts can be wrong, and what constitutes an expert in ripperology?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Livia]

Hi,
...I wonder if anyone has attempted to check the Scots Guards records for a Henry Davies?.
I have a suspicion , that the authorities knew shortly after the murder, her true identity, this has to be, otherwise how could Mrs McCarthy parcel up belongings , and sent them to her army brother, if Kelly was a alias,?.
Very confusing.
Regards Richard.

We only have Elizabeth McCarthy's statement that she parceled
up MJK's belongings and sent them to MJK's brother in the Scots
Guards. If this is so, how is it that a fish knife was auctioned off
at last year's conference, said to have formerly belonged to MJK
and had been in the McCarthy family for years?

There is a connection albeit tenuous, to the Scots Guards. The
book states that both Anne Davies and her daughter Elizabeth
worked for the Vane-Tempest family of Machynlleth. George
Vane-Tempest, the master of the house, had a brother Adolphus
who served with the Scots Fusilier Guards, which in 1877 by order
of Victoria, became the Scots Guards.

Edward and Anne Davies had no son named Henry. The only sons
listed on the census records are George, Edward and John Weston
Davies. It appears George may have died young, Edward was an
apprentice chemist in 1871 and John Weston, a cabinet maker,
married in 1891 and by 1911 was living in Wigan.

[Limehouse]

The suspect having local knowledge or living locally is an old chestnut which surfaces on a regular basis when suspects are discussed.

There is a 50% chance that one some or all of these women were murdered by someone who was not local.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Of course there's a chance, but most experts agree that the killer must have had a fairly good degree of local knowledge.

[Trevor Marriott]

That's a bit harsh. The theory has flaws, certainly, but it has many reasonable qualities such as the suspect being local/having local knowledge and the possibility that the real MJK has been discovered - although I emphasise 'possibility'.

The suspect having local knowledge or living locally is an old chestnut which surfaces on a regular basis when suspects are discussed.

There is a 50% chance that one some or all of these women were murdered by someone who was not local.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Limehouse]

A complete croc of nonsense and I would be astonished if a body was exhumed over it.

That's a bit harsh. The theory has flaws, certainly, but it has many reasonable qualities such as the suspect being local/having local knowledge and the possibility that the real MJK has been discovered - although I emphasise 'possibility'.

If you want crocs of nonsense look no further than the
Sickert/Van Gogh/Royal Conspiracy etc etc theories.