Did the Seaside Home ID happen?

[Phil Carter]

How do we know Mr Bonner actually saw the suspect file is they anybody else who could confirm this story.

There is Mr Donald Rumbelow who also accessed this file.


Phil

[Wickerman]

So by 1894 when the memorandum was written..just exactly where...apart from in a suspects file..would you expect Macnaghten to FIND Kosmindki the suspect..Druitt the suspect. ..Ostrog the suspect..If not in the suspects file?

By the time he saw it..ALL the suspects would have been in it. Tumblety included. Yet in 1973..not a sign of one of them.

Square pegs to fit round holes.


Phil

Doesn't a great deal depend on what date this Suspect File was created?

[Jonathan H]

Of course Kosminski and Ostrog appeared as minor suspects on some long list, now long lost.

The story of the Aberconway Papers is murkier as we only have scraps.

The private version of the Mac Report--the one whose suspect contents he disseminated to the public via cronies--was held by Lady Christabel Abercowway's older sister, Julia Donner, after the death of their mother.

I believe that the younger daughter feared her father's legacy, as the Scotland Yard sleuth who had solved the Ripper mystery, was in peril due to two competing factors: the claims being peddled by Leonard Matters that there was no Drowned Doctor and her own sibling's antipathy about the whole matter.

Consequently, in the early 1930's, Lady Aberconway had a secreratry type a copy. Yet the aristocrat was careful to hand-write the suspect page herself. She obviously feared a leak, which is fair enough. She then sat on the copy for another generation, until another author, McCormick, was trashing ehr fatehr's solutuion and, fortutiously, a hip young TV reporter/host was doing a piece on the whitechapel murders.

But she insisted that the Druitt name be with-held, and it was, for another five years until Cullen published it in 1965.

Sue enough the original was lost by Julia's family, with some family hanger-on claiming a very different and nonsenical evrsion which Ripeprology of course takes as gospel. Lady Christable's reponse eas to deny she had ever seen it, deny her nephew was deceased--he was--and to ask, belatedly, for her father's memoirs to be considered the definitive account.

My book is an attempt, very late in the day, tio undo much of the damage of subsequent so-called Ripperology. Good luck with climbing that mountain of misconception and planting a flag at the summit on behalf of historical truth.

What Christabel did not realise was that her fears of the Druitt family being ruined (or their descendants being tarnished) exactly mirrored the agenda of her late father, known for his Old Etonian discretion. She did not know that the document she was preserving was itself a discreet dodge. It had to be because her father had no qualms about projecting the un-named Druitt into the public arena. He was confident, you see, that no journo would find Montague, and when Leonard Matters became the first to do so he did not find any drowned 'doctor' and assumed the story was made-up. That's half-right, but the wrong half.

[harry]

'Taken with difficulty'implies there was resistance by Kosminski,and that,in the abscense of a legal reason to compel,his family exerted pressure.Of w hat nature,physical or mental? There is no evidence that he was of such low mental awareness that he would not understand,and the idea that force would be used or sanctioned by the family,appears too drastic a measure to be taken seriously.
So what is left.To a simple soul like myself,a simple answer..It never happened.

[Jeff Leahy]

What your all left with are the FACTS.

Swanson said what he said and was the man with over all responsibility for the investigation. Anderson was the sernior officer and clearly stated the identity of the killer was a definitively ascertained fact.

Both were capable and well liked officers under whose tenure crime reduced.

Unlike Macnaughten who was never actively involved in the ripper investigation. The obvious is also that as MAcNAughten was the last person to have the files on Kozminski and Druit, if they disappeared they were in his possession. MacNaughten was known to keep photographs relating to the case.

However if the file does eventually turn up my guess is it won't contain information about the ID, simply the information desimulated by MacNaughten unto March 1889. As I've pointed out nothing within the memo actually matches what Swanson claims in the marginalia. And it is in those contextual differences that the truth is to be found.

Yours Jeff

[Jonathan H]

You are so right, Jeff.

What you are left with are the FACTS!

Sir Melville Macnaghten said what he said and was in overall charge of the investigation, in the sense that he was in the office and on the streets, had access to evrybody and everything, and in his judgement Montague Drutit was the Ripper.

He also knew that Aaron Kosminski was still alive, had never been seen by a witness and was sectioned late; he knew Ostrog had been in France during the murers too.

And now, for the first time since 1922 we have--by August--the evidence to confirm all of the above.

[Garry Wroe]

… why go to so much trouble when the evidence against the suspect seemed so flimsy, at least before the identification, I.e. largely based on family suspicions and the fact that the suspect lived in the area?

Family suspicions, John? According to Anderson the man identified at the Seaside Home was ‘shielded’ by his family. It is for this reason, plus Swanson’s contention that Kosminski was sent for identification ‘with difficulty’, that I have suggested that Kosminski’s family intervened on his behalf once they learned that he had attracted investigative interest.

In fact, if I understand your argument correctly, there wasn't even enough evidence to secure an arrest.

I would assume that Kosminski was questioned and then investigated before the Seaside Home affair, John, and yet was still allowed to return to his brother’s house afterwards. We know too that City detectives targeted Kosminski in a round-the-clock surveillance operation that clearly uncovered nothing incriminating. The fact that Major Smith subsequently contended that there existed no evidence to implicate a Jew in the murders adds considerable weight to this conclusion. And whereas Swanson revealed that the identification itself was the evidence against Kosminski, Anderson asserted that the Ripper investigation was one of those instances in which the criminal’s identity was known, but that the evidence which would have secured a conviction was never forthcoming.

The evidence, therefore, such as it is, is strongly suggestive that investigators had little or nothing on Kosminski beyond the identification itself. Contrary to popular myth the identificational witness must have been Schwartz. Had it been Lawende he would have made the identification on behalf of Major Smith and his City investigators, an event we can be all but certain didn’t occur. So Schwartz was the witness and Kosminski was assumed to have been Broad Shoulders. Neither the Met nor its City counterpart uncovered any independent evidence to link Kosminski to Jack the Ripper. It was all about the Seaside Home identification. The problem, however, is that Smith was not only scathing in his criticism of Anderson’s claim that the killer had been identified as a specific Polish Jew, he stated that there had emerged no evidence to implicate any Jew in the murders.

And Major Smith was in a position to know.

[Jeff Leahy]

Two Separate Stories Anderson V Macnaughten

Two separate Kozminski Stories

Had the opportunity to go back over the sources for a few hours this morning and as always noticed some important details key to solving the mystery.

A cautioning note is given by Sir Robert in his memoirs, where he recalled being vexed with a senior colleague, who made a silly fuss about a threatening letter…its clear that Anderson is talking about MacNAughten the new boy on the block in June 1889 and unpopular choice of constable in 1890. As Swanson refers to Anderson as his Old master, and MacNAughten basically ignores Anderson in his memoirs clearly there is a rift between the two men creating two sides or theories in the department…

Abberline Aludes to the two sides in 1903 while pushing his chapman theory. “’and you must understand that we haver believed all those stories about JacktR being dead (Presuably Druit) or that he was a lunatic (Presumably a reference to Kozminski) or anything of that kind. So even Abberline was aware that there were two major theories being put forward in his old department.

But if MacNAughten is the new kid on the block not directly involved in the investigation Anderson is very clear in reply to Mentor ‘I am not speaking as an expert in crime, but as a man who investigated the facts’ (Globe 7thMarch 1910)

So Anderson is clear here he directly was responcible for the Asylum Seaside home ID. And it seems unlikely he would have persisted with his claims about a suspect ID in the face of outright critisim by Mentor had he not been completely cirtain of those facts Which leads me back to two when Anderson formed his theory

1892: Anderson produced photos of the victims and said ‘There, there is my answer to people who come with fads and and theories (Was he already referenceing MacNaughten?) about these murders. It is impossible to believe they were the acts of a sane man (inother words an insane suspect) they were those of a maniac reveling in blood’

Its clear by 1892..Andersons Kozminski ID has already happened and his theory will resolve as know more murders take place in the coming years…

But by the time MacANughten rights his memo its absolutely clear that MacANughten doesn’t know much about Kozminski or what happened to him…If you read what he says on Kozminski out of context it might seem a little vague…. (And I believe still is) but compare that to what he says about Ostrog: ‘Where abouts (sic) murders could never be satisfactorily accounted for. FULL STOP. He is still alive.

In other words when MAcNAughten knows someone is alive he states it categorically yet when discussing Kosminski he places in brackets ‘and I believe he still is….Nothing could be clearer MacNaughten doesn’t know what happened to Kozminski, yet Swanson is absolutely cleat about Stepney workhouse and Colnay Hatch, all know to be true and having taken place..

Of course Sims expands the story and spices it up a little in 1907 but It’s the same basic story: They (Simply combining Kozminski and Ostrog) were both alive long after the horrors had ceased, and though both were in an asylum, there had been a considerable time after the cessation of the Ripper crimes during which they were at liberty and passing about amoung their fellow men” This is the same story that MacAnughten gives in the memo where Kozminski is at large until March 1889 and Ostrog is…Still alive. But Sims offers nothing new MacANughtens story is the same.

MacNAughten story: Kozminski was followed up to March 1889. He was suspected because he resembled a man seen leaving Mitre square by a City policeman….and of course Sagar was directly involved with the MET during this period. Thats all MacNaughten ever reveals about Kozminski apart from some general stuff like masturbation.

In Anderson story the suspect is suspected because of a broken pipe found at the MJK murder scene and something to do with the destroyed graffiti. But however you read it Anderson and MacNaughten are describing two completely different/seperate events. One in March 1889 and the ID separate at an asylum seaside home in 1890.

MacANughtens story: Kosminski, a Polish Jew, who lived in (the very) heart of the district where the murders were committed.
He had become insane owing to many years indulgence in solitary vices. He had a strong hatred of women, with strong homicidal tendencies, He was (and I believe still is) detained in a lunatic asylum about March 1889. This man in appearance strongly resembled the individualseen by a city PC near Mitre square.

Swanson story: Because the suspect was also a jew and also because his evidence would convict the suspect, and the witness would be the means of murder being hanged, which he did not wish to be left on his mind.And after identification which the suspect had been identified at the Seaside Home…

Anderson states exactly where that sea side home and ID took place: “I will only add that when the individual whom we suspected was caged in an asylum, the only person who ever had a good view of the murderer at once indentified him.” In other words Kozminski was in an asylum (A convalescent asylum in surrey) when the ID took place, Swanson refers to it as a Seaside Home but there is no mystery, it clearly wasn’t the seaside police home in Brighton as previously suggested.

Swanson Contl: Where he had been sent by us with difficulty in order to subject him to identification, and he knew he was identified. On suspects return to his brothers house in Whitechapel, he was watched by police (City CID), by day and night. In a very short time the suspect with his hands tied behind his back,, he was sent to Stepney Work house and then to Colney Hatch and died shortly afterwards – Kozminski was the suspect.

Finally what happened to the missing files on Kozminski and Druit well MacNaughten tells us “ I have destroyed all my documents and there is now no record of the secret information which came into my possession at one time or another”

I think that directly answers what happened to the missing files

Yours Jeff

[Phil Carter]

Doesn't a great deal depend on what date this Suspect File was created?

Hello Jon,

Good point..but equally..If the file on The Whitechapel Murders was still open until 1896 ( the last known entry being from then) you have the very plausible situation that the file is kept up to date.

Now if the suspects file itself only covers 1889 and before..would you not expect to see Tumblety in it? Not even a mention of Druitt who died at the end of 1888 and who was suspected by Macnaghten? ..ok. .let is assume..I hate doing it...that none of today's modern "suspects" were in that file. Ok. Fair enough.

What additional suspects file are we then talking about if MM used the material to come to his conclusions? Surely..nobody is seriously suggesting ANOTHER suspects file which just happens to contain Kosminski, Druitt, Ostrog and even Tumblety? ( The latter who would be by explained definition of the previously mentioned suspects file..be in that).

I opine that trying to fit up Kosminski is reaching new limits. What's next? A passage underlined in an old Talmud with the name Kosminski written in next to the words "taking of a life" ?

Shawly not.


Phil

[Jeff Leahy]

. The fact that Major Smith subsequently contended that there existed no evidence to implicate a Jew in the murders adds considerable weight to this conclusion.

Having gone over Smiths account which clearly pokes fun at both Anderson and MacNaughten, in the final analysis he is actually quiet vague.

And whereas Swanson revealed that the identification itself was the evidence against Kosminski, Anderson asserted that the Ripper investigation was one of those instances in which the criminal’s identity was known, but that the evidence which would have secured a conviction was never forthcoming.

The evidence, therefore, such as it is, is strongly suggestive that investigators had little or nothing on Kosminski beyond the identification itself. Contrary to popular myth the identificational witness must have been Schwartz. Had it been Lawende he would have made the identification on behalf of Major Smith and his City investigators, an event we can be all but certain didn’t occur. So Schwartz was the witness and Kosminski was assumed to have been Broad Shoulders. Neither the Met nor its City counterpart uncovered any independent evidence to link Kosminski to Jack the Ripper. It was all about the Seaside Home identification. The problem, however, is that Smith was not only scathing in his criticism of Anderson’s claim that the killer had been identified as a specific Polish Jew, he stated that there had emerged no evidence to implicate any Jew in the murders.

And Major Smith was in a position to know.

While I agree it would appear that the ID was all there was to go on…If the Crawford letter relates to Kozminaki clearly Anderson had a lot more reason to suspect Kozminski and the changing of the wording from Blackwoods to TLSOMOL clearly suggest that Anderson was not talking about Jews but a specific family..

Add to that that Anderson also talks about lost evidence that might have been significant a Pipe at MJK and the Graffiti

Yours jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Now if the suspects file itself only covers 1889 and before..would you not expect to see Tumblety in it? Not even a mention of Druitt who died at the end of 1888 and who was suspected by Macnaghten? ..ok. .let is assume..I hate doing it...that none of today's modern "suspects" were in that file. Ok. Fair enough.

Phil

To my knowledge the names contained in the missing suspect file don't mirror those discovered in the ledgers..

Also Abberline talks about 1600 states taken over a short period of time. There was clearly a huge mountain of paper work relating to the case at one time.

Yours Jeff

[Phil Carter]

Finally what happened to the missing files on Kozminski and Druit well MacNaughten tells us “ I have destroyed all my documents and there is now no record of the secret information which came into my possession at one time or another”

I think that directly answers what happened to the missing files

Yours Jeff

So now...The story about MM having secret info on Druitt. .is now being applied to Kosminski as well? A secret file on them both?

Oh dear oh me. Then you have to...by sheer definition..include a secret file on Ostrog too.

Who wasn't a dangerous killing maniac in anyone's language to anyone....at all. ..ever. Damned good secret info MM had then..to draw on that conclusion. You can't pick and choose here. .If you believe MM had secret info from secret files then it applies to all three.

Maybe Ostrogs family tipped MM the wink eh?

Goodness me. It gets worse.


Phil

[Jeff Leahy]

So now...The story about MM having secret info on Druitt. .is now being applied to Kosminski as well? A secret file on them both?

Phil

What ever are you going on about. I've never said anything other than there was a file on Kozminski, it stands to reason. And it is missing.

I've simply noted that MacNaughten claimed to have destroyed relevant information..

And as always your avoiding answering..Do any of the names given in the missing files match the names you gave from the ledgers a while ago? Its not a trick question

My point about Ostrog was very clear: MacNaughten stated 'He was Still alive' however when referring to Kozminski he says '(and I believe still is)' thats in the same document, suggesting MacNaughten didn't know what happened to Kozminski
Yours Jeff

[pinkmoon]

So now...The story about MM having secret info on Druitt. .is now being applied to Kosminski as well? A secret file on them both?

Oh dear oh me. Then you have to...by sheer definition..include a secret file on Ostrog too.

Who wasn't a dangerous killing maniac in anyone's language to anyone....at all. ..ever. Damned good secret info MM had then..to draw on that conclusion. You can't pick and choose here. .If you believe MM had secret info from secret files then it applies to all three.

Maybe Ostrogs family tipped MM the wink eh?

Goodness me. It gets worse.


Phil

I very much doubt there are any secret files on Kosminski or Druitt I think the facts point to Kosminski only becoming a "suspect" because he picked up a knife to a women and an identification was at least considered but failed and because he lived locally police had a look at him as for Druitt sir Melville has heard something which he obviously has taken very seriously and for what ever reason declines to reveal his source. If people would like me to I'm quite prepared to put this scenario into another masterpiece short play let me know if you want me to.

[Jeff Leahy]

I very much doubt there are any secret files on Kosminski or Druitt I think the facts point to Kosminski only becoming a "suspect" because he picked up a knife to a women and an identification was at least considered but failed and because he lived locally police had a look at him as for Druitt sir Melville has heard something which he obviously has taken very seriously and for what ever reason declines to reveal his source. If people would like me to I'm quite prepared to put this scenario into another masterpiece short play let me know if you want me to.

Well I agree there were no secret files…only the files unto March 1889 which Macnaughten clearly states.. Could be lots on this if Kozminski was the Batty Street bloody shirt as claimed by Rob House.. But we know Kozminski lived in Dutfeild yard as a kid and only hundreds of feet from the stride murder

Yours Jeff