Did the Seaside Home ID happen?

[pinkmoon]

[QUOTE=John G;341842]Hello Garry,

I agree with your assessment that JtR was probably reasonably organized. At the very least he seemed to have the ability to silently overpower his victims without attracting attention to himself. That also applies to Liz Stride, if you accept her as a ripper victim: Mrs Diemshutz heard nothing, even though she was probably sat a few feet away in the kitchen with the window open; neither did Mortimer, even though her hearing was apparently so acute that she heard the passing of a pony and cart and even the familiar tread of a police officer passing by, whilst sat indoors.

I believe that Castle and Hensley (2002) claimed that there has never been a validated case of a schizophrenic serial killer. Are you aware of any examples?[/QUOTE
He certainly had enough self control to be able to stop his grisly work and leg it at the right time

[pinkmoon]

The leading contender according to whom, Jeff? Abberline didn’t express such a view. Neither did Major Smith. Nor Macnaghten. In fact the only person who was there at the time, had access to the case files, was in a position to adequately weigh the evidence, and who still concluded that Kosminski was the killer was Anderson.

And what was the basis for this conclusion?

Fortunately we are in a position to know. It was the identification. Anderson and Swanson themselves tell us that there was nothing else to connect Kosminski to the killings. The case against Kosminski evaporated the moment Anderson’s witness withdrew his co-operation.

As such, Jeff, I would recommend that you look at the psychological studies undertaken to assess the reliability of eyewitness accounts. Should you do so you’ll begin to understand the fragility of a case based solely upon a single eyewitness identification.

Kosminski came to the police's attention when he picked up a knife to his sister this fact coupled with him living locally must have made the police very interested in him so the next logical step would be to make some discreet enquires to see what Kosminski was doing on the night of the murders.Let's assume it wasn't possible to determine where he was on the nights in question or all the police could find out was that he was in the habit of wandering about at night through to the early hours so it would be worth to try and get their "best" witness to I.D him the most logical conclusion is that the witness could not identify Kosminski so that was that .There has always been a group of people who hold the believe that certain police officers knew who jtr was but never shared it with their fellow officers or the general public the facts don't tell us this the facts tell us they didn't really have an real idea so based on this Kosminski and others must have looked attractive to the police .When Sir Melville was asked to compile his famous memo he could have refused because the police had no idea who jtr was or he could have gone to his barrel of information done some scraping and produce his memo of which one name(ostrog)was added purely to make up the numbers.This idea that some policeman knew and kept it to themselves is just plain crazy and ranks along side the royal baby conspiracy for pure lunacy.

[Jeff Leahy]

I believe that Castle and Hensley (2002) claimed that there has never been a validated case of a schizophrenic serial killer. Are you aware of any examples?

Off the top of my head John, both Brady and Sutcliffe are diagnosed schizophrenics, although admittedly not good examples of such serial kiler in my opinion. I need to look up a few FBI profile quotes from Hazelwood so I hope you'll both bare with me for 24hrs

I rather foolishly knocked my front teeth out last week and have the dreaded morning at the dentist tomorrow….Ah!!!.. in the mean time I'll suck it and see

Yours jeff

[Abby Normal]

I remember it well, Jeff. The problem is that, as a qualified psychologist, I don’t happen to share your confidence in Bill Beadle’s expertise in human thought and behaviour.

In criminological terms the blitz attack is one wherein there is little to no interaction between the offender and victim prior to violence taking place. Indeed, in many cases first contact between the victim and assailant is the attack. It is ferocious, unremitting and often results in the most appalling of injuries. More often than not the blitz-style assault is perpetrated by an offender who lacks the confidence or ability to control a victim verbally. The chances are that such an assailant will either be suffering from some severe psychological impairment or his behaviour will have been influenced by alcohol or drugs. In most cases the victim’s arms and hands will exhibit defence injuries sustained during the initial stage of the attack.

If Mrs Long’s observations are to be relied upon we know that Annie Chapman spoke to her killer prior to entering the Hanbury Street crime scene. We can also be confident that Kate Eddowes chatted with her slayer shortly before accompanying him to Mitre Square. So where was the blitz attack in these two cases? Where were the defence wounds? Where was the noise that almost invariably accompanies the blitz attack? No-one heard a thing – least of all George Morris who was awake, alert and merely feet from Eddowes when she met her end?

Sorry, Jeff, but the notion of the Ripper as a blitz attacker is a myth.


We know well enough how he conducted himself shortly before the Eddowes murder because he was observed by Lawende and party. He was non-threatening; she was perfectly relaxed in his company.


He killed in the small hours which meant that he was seen by few potential witnesses. He operated in an area with which he was clearly intimately acquainted. He preyed exclusively on the most vulnerable of adult targets. He was never seen or heard at any one of his crime scenes. Despite the best efforts of two police forces, the best medical minds around, the combined resources of the press, the introduction of vigilance patrols and the co-operation of the general public, he remained unidentified.

I’m sorry, Jeff, but if you fail to see an underlying intelligence in the Ripper’s crimes I can only conclude that you’ve been unduly influenced by your seeming fixation with Kosminski. Perhaps it’s time to take a step back and review these murders from a more objective standpoint.

Hi Garry
exactly. The ripper was nothing if not organized. The ripper used the ruse tactic to get his victims exactly where he wanted them. Even at the height of the scare. No disorganized killer, mentally ill, would be able to do what the ripper did and not get caught.

I think what throws off many people (and the FBI profilers on this one)is that one of the main characteristics they include of a disorganized killer is the leaving of the body where murdered, with no attempt to hide. So the ripper gets put into this category based partially on that (incorrectly IMHO).

The problem is they don't take into account that modern serial killers have a mobile bolt hole-a car- that aids in the removal and hiding of the body. The ripper didn't have this option and in lew of that substituted a swift, silent and efficient kill along with the uncanny perception to know when exactly to escape.

if he was crazy-he was crazy like a fox.

[Errata]

I can only add that one of the experts I am in regular contact with. He worked for many years at a well know institution specifically with schizophrenics. He is now head of a social services organisation and part of his job involves being on call to the police to deal with mental health issues. So he would be familiar with a wind range of mental conditions.

I absolutely believe this guy is an expert. I also know that he is guessing because we don't have the needed diagnostic criteria for this man. And we don't have it for most people we try to diagnose retrospectively. Nobody can actually diagnose Jack the Ripper, or Napoleon, or Ivan the Terrible, or whoever we bend our interest on. We don't have the necessary information. We can guess, and we can eve guess well. But we cannot diagnose. I absolutely believe your expert sees something he recognizes. Unfortunately, delusions are delusions, whether it's from schizophrenia or from not sleeping for 12 days. And we don't have enough to base a diagnosis on. It's a guess. A fine guess. A perfectly understandable guess. I just think it's incorrect.

People see what they know. And I do it too. I know I'm biased. I too see what I know.

That said you seem to be arguing that there would be underlying personality disorders also and I think that i was clear that I would agree with that.

I think this is a nomenclature problem, but just in case I'm going to correct it. Personality disorders are a specific thing. Anything Axis II is called a personality disorder. So, Borderline, psychopathy, oppositional defiant disorder, antisocial personality disorder, attachment disorder, etc. All personality disorders. Can't be treated with medication, some can't be treated at all. It's not genetic, it's almost never related to physical trauma, and in everything other psychopathy, any brain scan is clean, so it's not structural. Some psychopaths have brain anomalies. Some of these disorders are adaptations to say, severe abuse or trauma, some aren't. A lot of people walk around with these problems. And they are insanely difficult to fix.

And I assume Jack the Ripper has one of these disorders. Most serial killers do.

But that's not what I'm talking about. In modern times, someone comes in with delusions they are immediately put on antipsychotics. Which is how you treat schizophrenia. Antipsychotics will stop delusions whether you are schizophrenic or are seriously sleep deprived. So the pills don't care why you broke, they just stop the delusions. A schizophrenic may still have some cognitive difficulties, but they will be pretty much normal after treatment. So if you give someone antipsychotics and they are fixed, that's likely schizophrenia. Someone whose delusions are not caused by schizophrenia will still have the symptoms of whatever caused it. So if a Bipolar person becomes delusional, they are given antipsychotics and the delusions will go away, but the Bipolar will remain. So if antipsychotics fix the delusions but there is still a big underlying problem, it likely wasn't schizophrenia. And Bipolar or insomnia or PTSD, etc. are not personality disorders. They are Axis I or medical disorders. There is structural defect, there is chemical defect, they can be treated with medication. They are not diseases that are in conjunction with schizophrenia. They are an alternate diagnosis to schizophrenia. I think mania caused the delusions. So a mood disorder, not a schizophreniform disorder. But also not a personality disorder. Many of those tend to be tacked on to a person as poor coping mechanisms, so they often have little to do with major dysfunction, and more to do with small day to day dysfunction. Axis I disorders are why you end up in a hospital, Axis II disorders are why you don't have friends. as an example.

But delusions are symptom, and a symptom of many diseases. Schizophrenia is one of those diseases, but not the only one. Whether it was schizophrenia or mania, the killer likely also has personality disorders.

Well I don't agree that they are less likely to be violent, 'just that they are nomore likely to be violent than other people in society'

What I have said is that other people can and do become dangerous, usually because of other factors both mental and physical.

Statistically they are less likely. They run at 2% while the "normal" population runs at about 7% or 8%. But normals also commit different crimes, so a schizophrenic almost never beats his wife to death, but he is also less likely to get or stay married. Schizophrenics don't knock over liquor stores, so they don't rack up the attendant death toll that goes with armed robbery, that kind of thing.

I've certainly seen statistics that suggest Manic Depressives are the most likely to be serial killers. Bi Polar seems to be a more modern term. And as I've said in the past my partners ex has bi-polar and tried to run her over.. So yes we get it can be dangerous. I could say a lot but have no reason to suppose he is a serial killer or that anyone who develops mental illness in any form would become a serial killer.

Are we really most likely? I suppose it makes sense, though more serial killers are diagnosed schizophrenic or schizoaffective after the fact by doctors conducting a one hour interview to determine competency for trial. Those diagnoses would never stick, so I never paid much attention to them other than to get irritated. I'm absolutely certain we don't lead the world, just the mentally ill community. I think apparently normal people still blaze that trail. Personally I would say Borderline people make the most sense as serial killers, but I have no numbers to back that up.

Bipolar is the correct term, because in the past 30 years or so they made the discovery that most people suffering from this disease are not manic and then depressed, the way the name would indicate. There is depression, there is major depression which is worse and lasts longer. There is mania, and there is hypomania, which is not as bad as full mania, and there are mixed episodes where depression and hypomania happen at the same time. And a sufferer tends to swing between two of these five states. So I swing between major depression and mixed episodes. I've been manic all of once, when I was 16. I am Bipolar, I have two poles. But I am not manic depressive and never have been. So they changed the name in the DSM IV, and now it's bipolar. Some people get offended by manic depressive, some don't. I don't. But Bipolar is descriptively more correct. And is now the official name of the disease.

But I will say that we tend to feel things more than other people, not surprisingly. So while our impulse control might be crap, we are also are incapable of dissociating to the point that we can't feel what we are doing. And most people can do that fairly easily. Which I would think would make for a lousy serial killer, and the guilt is no joke on the depressive side. I mean, I'm half Jewish, half Catholic, AND Bipolar, so yeah I'm the girl who woke her father up at 2 in the morning when I was 17 to confess to smoking a joint, and I cannot possibly convey to you how little he cared.

Jack the Ripper lust style serial killers are extremely rare, infact almost non existent, so we are looking at a very rare set of circumstance whoever we beleive was the killer.

Yours Jeff

It may not be lust at all, though I know the term applies to the areas of the body attacked and not necessarily the motive. But it is rare, and there are not a lot of other cases we can look to compare. If I were to guess, I would say that Dahmer and Gein are the cases that will teach us the most about this guy, but it's more a gut feeling than a reasoned statement.

PS Just as an outside thought, you discuss the stress factor for a schizophrenic serial killer cutting throats and disembowelling people. Do you think if a schizophrenic worked in an abattoir cutting animals throats and cutting ofal, in might have a detrimental effect on their condition?

Today it absolutely would be. I don't know how much it would inform his delusions, everyone is different there. But yes unless his frontal lobe was also deficient it would definitely not be recommended.

When I say that stress is damaging to unmedicated schizophrenics, I mean that biologically. Stress shreds our brains literally, we lose neurons, we shred telomeres, our electrical activity gets erratic. That's why it's hard to think when we are stressed. But we have healthy brains so we can take a lot. Schizophrenics brains are collapsing, and their electrical connections are compromised. So not only can stress trigger a delusional episode, it can cause their cognitive deficits to get a lot worse, and not recover. So a schizophrenic whose father has just died, say, who had minor cognitive deficits before can come out the other end with significant cognitive deficits that might not get better. The may lose the ability to communicate effectively. Nowadays medication offers enough support that the brain can usually recover from that, but clearly back then it wasn't available.

But in 1888 it might not have been a big deal. Death and carcasses were sort of all around, and there would have been ample time for him to get used to it. It would all depend on empathy. Nowadays we empathize with animals. None of us want to see a cow killed for the steaks we eat, and yes it's hypocritical. Back then the empathy for animals was not as strong. And while the gore involved with being a butcher was above the average exposure, that wouldn't be stressful if there wasn't empathy. Now in this case we are talking about a Jew and therefor looking at a shochet instead of a regular butcher. And shochetry (I may have made up that word) would be easier for someone with empathy for animals. But if they didn't have a lot of empathy, then they didn't have it. And it didn't matter where they worked or how.

I don't particularly see that being an issue with Kosminski, I think that his stress points probably involved his family. Speaking from experience I can say that mental illness, even when you are perfectly fine, puts a huge strain on family who want you to be okay, and often have very definite ideas as to how that needs to happen, and it's constant pushing. It's why I don't blame him for pulling a knife on his sister. I punched my sister in the face. It's the nagging that is just infuriating, frustrating, and scary. You'll do anything to stop it and get away.

[Natasha]

In context of serial murder, Natasha, the term ‘disorganized’ was coined by the FBI with reference to killers whose overall crime-related behaviour is spontaneous, chaotic, lacking control, bizarre and somewhat inconsistent. According to the FBI such killers are, without exception, paranoid schizophrenics. Contrary to what has been stated on this thread, moreover, roughly a third of all sadosexual serial killers are said to fall into this category.

This being so, we can either conclude that Jack the Ripper was a disorganized (paranoid schizophrenic) killer who just happened to enjoy a fabulous run of good fortune, or he was (to a larger or lesser extent) an organized offender whose crimes exuded planning, control, adaptability and a certain native intelligence.

To my mind there is no question that he fell into the latter category.

Hi Garry,

The classic schizophrenia doesn't really fit either. But is it possible that a disorganised killer could develop organised traits, maybe if they were trying to make sense of their confusing state?

I don't think classification of serial killers always fall neatly into any one criteria.

Someone, John G I think, made the point that the torso murderer appeared more organised than the ripper, and I agree. Now I guess the argument determining that could be perhaps the killer was of better finances than the ripper, for example he had access to a coach.

[Trevor Marriott]

Kosminski came to the police's attention when he picked up a knife to his sister this fact coupled with him living locally must have made the police very interested in him so the next logical step would be to make some discreet enquires to see what Kosminski was doing on the night of the murders.Let's assume it wasn't possible to determine where he was on the nights in question or all the police could find out was that he was in the habit of wandering about at night through to the early hours so it would be worth to try and get their "best" witness to I.D him the most logical conclusion is that the witness could not identify Kosminski so that was that .There has always been a group of people who hold the believe that certain police officers knew who jtr was but never shared it with their fellow officers or the general public the facts don't tell us this the facts tell us they didn't really have an real idea so based on this Kosminski and others must have looked attractive to the police .When Sir Melville was asked to compile his famous memo he could have refused because the police had no idea who jtr was or he could have gone to his barrel of information done some scraping and produce his memo of which one name(ostrog)was added purely to make up the numbers.This idea that some policeman knew and kept it to themselves is just plain crazy and ranks along side the royal baby conspiracy for pure lunacy.

Garry

You have confirmed what I have been saying all along that Kosminski like other so called "prime suspects" are in reality nothing more than "persons of interest" and researchers should stop trying to make them into something they are not, and were not way back then.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Paddy]

Re Cox following suspect

I often wonder if Pizar might not be in the mix here, even though being cleared of Polly Nicholls murder, he did stay with a brother in Mulberry street and he could have still been a person of interest being watched. He did go to a private Jewish rest home I believe in Norwood and could have been involved in an identification?

Pat................

[pinkmoon]

Garry

You have confirmed what I have been saying all along that Kosminski like other so called "prime suspects" are in reality nothing more than "persons of interest" and researchers should stop trying to make them into something they are not, and were not way back then.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

The ripper case seems to have a conspiracy involved in every part of it these days unlike the good old days when we just had the royal baby conspiracy to contend with which was total rubbish but very entertaining rubbish.p.s prefer jason to Gary no conspiracy I'm sure just an honest mistake.

[Tom_Wescott]

I often wonder if Pizar might not be in the mix here, even though being cleared of Polly Nicholls murder, he did stay with a brother in Mulberry street and he could have still been a person of interest being watched. He did go to a private Jewish rest home I believe in Norwood and could have been involved in an identification?

Pat................

John Pizer was definitely involved in more than one identification. The women of 18 Thrawl Street (perhaps even Frances Coles!) looked at him and said he wasn't Leather Apron. Emanuel Violinia ID'd him out of a group of 12-20 men as having been a man he saw man-handling Annie Chapman just before her murder, although Violinia was quickly dismissed as a liar.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Paddy]

Leather Apron

Thanks Tom, I will have a read about him in a mo. The suspects all seem to be so mixed up one wonders if this was a deliberate ploy on the part of the police to confuse?
Pat...............

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks Tom, I will have a read about him in a mo. The suspects all seem to be so mixed up one wonders if this was a deliberate ploy on the part of the police to confuse?
Pat...............

Hi Paddy, as pertains to what? The Macnaghten memoranda? Swanson marginalia? Contemporary press? If Swanson was confused when writing his marginalia, I'm sure it was a genuine confusion and not an attempt to mislead. The Mac Mem is a little more open to debate.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Paddy]

In the general press coverage overall.
Its a bit off thread and it was just an observation really.
Apologies...I think its time I turned in....
Pat.....

[Jeff Leahy]

I remember it well, Jeff. The problem is that, as a qualified psychologist, I don’t happen to share your confidence in Bill Beadle’s expertise in human thought and behaviour.

Hi Gary, as I said Bill Beadle is a recognised author and was at the time Chairman of the Whitechapel society. Bill has studied the autopsy reports in great detail, its always struck me that the only thing we really know for certain about Jack the Ripper is the marks and cuts he left on the bodies themselves. Interestingly the various marks and bruises suggest the killer altered his MO a significant amount from crime to crime (Depending where you start and finish) Some being attacked from the front , others from behind, so I very much welcomed Bills input.

On Human thought and behaviour however we tended to rely on Harley street specialist Dr Lars Davidson.

In criminological terms the blitz attack is one where in there is little to no interaction between the offender and victim prior to violence taking place.

I'm not quiet sure where your getting your definition from, certainly not the FBI. But I guess the word 'little' here is somewhat subjective. Theres a big difference asking someone for a debate on Plato, and asking someone for a quick shag.

Indeed, in many cases first contact between the victim and assailant is the attack. It is ferocious, unremitting and often results in the most appalling of injuries.

Have you looked at the MJK photograph? How much more appalling do you require?

More often than not the blitz-style assault is perpetrated by an offender who lacks the confidence or ability to control a victim verbally.

Again the difference between a conversation on the Big Bang theory and picking up a prostitute

The chances are that such an assailant will either be suffering from some severe psychological impairment or his behaviour will have been influenced by alcohol or drugs.

Yes I agree. My expert advise was that Schizophrenics are by and large pretty harmless and in the case of violence they would expect use of an outside catalyst either drugs or Alcohol.

Remember Schwart describes BSM as walking as if drunk.

In most cases the victim’s arms and hands will exhibit defence injuries sustained during the initial stage of the attack.

Both Kelly Smith and Stride show possible signs of struggle. It depends how you view each murder. My opinion is that Nichols was attacked from behind. Chapman from the front, Stride from Behind (Possibly with a legature), Eddows (More difficult) but if pushed from behind, Kelly was attacked from the Front through the sheets.

If Mrs Long’s observations are to be relied upon we know that Annie Chapman spoke to her killer prior to entering the Hanbury Street crime scene. We can also be confident that Kate Eddowes chatted with her slayer shortly before accompanying him to Mitre Square. So where was the blitz attack in these two cases?

Yes I agree, see my previous posts on level of conversation. I personally think these women at least had seen him around. He didn't stick out. Perhaps he did offer presents (Thats very speculative) But he would have had reason to be in those areas. I think Pet food was significant at Hanbury street and Bucks Row.

But these women took the client to their spot, the blitz attack happening very quickly when they arrived.

Where were the defence wounds? Where was the noise that almost invariably accompanies the blitz attack? No-one heard a thing – least of all George Morris who was awake, alert and merely feet from Eddowes when she met her end?

Its always been a bit of a Myth that none heard anything. Indeed at least two witnesses may have done so. Harriot Lilly in bucks Row heard gurgling Noise consistent with the Stride attack… 'She screamed three times but not very loudly'. And Albert Cadoshe going to the tiolet almost certainly heard something hit the fence, which would match the later time of death theory. (Day light) And of course crys of murder were heard and ignored at the MJK Millers Court.

Actually the biggest mystery is how none appears to have heard Tabram being stabbed while still alive.

Sorry, Jeff, but the notion of the Ripper as a blitz attacker is a myth.

OK Lets look it this in detail:

The FBI profile described Jack the Ripper as "white male of average intelligence, in his mid to late twenties, who was single and had never been married. Hazelwood and Douglas claimed that the ripper was the type of killer "as opportunity presents itself" and thought that he "wasn't nearly clever as he was lucky"

Pretty much the conclusion of the Definitive Story documentary.

Amoung other things, The FBI profile noted that the Ripper lived near the crime scenes: had "poor personal higene and a dishevelled appearance"

Mrs Long "Shabbie Gentile"

"Was a loner, who "Had difficulty interacting appropriately with anyone, but particularly women" "Was mentally disturbed" "Was sexually inadequate, with a lot of internal rage against women" who "Simultainously hated and feared women" and "did not have a degree of medical knowledge"

As Rob House says in Scotland Yards prime suspect : " These aspects of the FBI's profile clearly seem to fit Kozminski"

The FBI profile of Jack shows he fits the description of a disorganised-type serial killer…"We thought that said Hazelwood"because of the locations where he committed four of five crimes. They were outdoors-they were on the streets or in a court yard- very high risk crime. In other words, whoever this person was, was almost oblivious to the risk"

This is supported in Defintive by Dr Lars Davidson.

Hazelwood " I don't see how anyone who knows anything at all about violent crime can say that was an organised crime" Hazelwood later added "The disorganised offender also generally uses a "Blitzstyle attack" and kills suddenly, often from behind, as the Ripper probably did"

I think thats fairly conclusive that my opinion that Jack the Ripper was a disorganised serial killer using blitz attacks is supported by most experts in the field. And at present I see no reason to revisit this part of The Definitive Story Documentary.

Trusting that clarify's

We know well enough how he conducted himself shortly before the Eddowes murder because he was observed by Lawende and party. He was non-threatening; she was perfectly relaxed in his company.

She was after money not a lecture on Dawin.

He killed in the small hours which meant that he was seen by few potential witnesses.

So does your average town Fox

He operated in an area with which he was clearly intimately acquainted. He preyed exclusively on the most vulnerable of adult targets.

Yes agreed. I also think that it can be demonstrated that he 'Occupied various premisis' near the murder scenes

He was never seen or heard at any one of his crime scenes.

As I've pointed out this is a Myth.

Despite the best efforts of two police forces, the best medical minds around, the combined resources of the press, the introduction of vigilance patrols and the co-operation of the general public, he remained unidentified.

Hold on a minute…Isn't that actually what this thread is about?

That is pure opinion on your part NOT fact. The two people in charge of the investigation appear to contradict this statement!

I’m sorry, Jeff, but if you fail to see an underlying intelligence in the Ripper’s crimes I can only conclude that you’ve been unduly influenced by your seeming fixation with Kosminski. Perhaps it’s time to take a step back and review these murders from a more objective standpoint.

I've been study these crimes for almost 15 years now. I've simply in that time eliminated the other suspects. I am more than capable of taking a Rythian stand point, its what I do..

Anyway I hope that clarifies my position on disorganised serial killers, I don't what to stray to far from the ID and when it happened at the heart of this thread

Many thanks

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

I absolutely believe this guy is an expert. I also know that he is guessing because we don't have the needed diagnostic criteria for this man. And we don't have it for most people we try to diagnose retrospectively. Nobody can actually diagnose Jack the Ripper, or Napoleon, or Ivan the Terrible, or whoever we bend our interest on. We don't have the necessary information. We can guess, and we can eve guess well. But we cannot diagnose. I absolutely believe your expert sees something he recognizes. Unfortunately, delusions are delusions, whether it's from schizophrenia or from not sleeping for 12 days. And we don't have enough to base a diagnosis on. It's a guess. A fine guess. A perfectly understandable guess. I just think it's incorrect.

People see what they know. And I do it too. I know I'm biased. I too see what I know.

Both experts I interviewed spoke with caveats and qualifiers. Thats how expert opinion usual arrives. Neither could give a precise diagnosis without one to one with a person.

They gave their opinion to the best of there ability given the limited amount of information available. YTheir opinions largely based on Kozminski's age and the illness development.

I think this is a nomenclature problem, but just in case I'm going to correct it. Personality disorders are a specific thing. Anything Axis II is called a personality disorder. So, Borderline, psychopathy, oppositional defiant disorder, antisocial personality disorder, attachment disorder, etc. All personality disorders. Can't be treated with medication, some can't be treated at all. It's not genetic, it's almost never related to physical trauma, and in everything other psychopathy, any brain scan is clean, so it's not structural. Some psychopaths have brain anomalies. Some of these disorders are adaptations to say, severe abuse or trauma, some aren't. A lot of people walk around with these problems. And they are insanely difficult to fix.

And I assume Jack the Ripper has one of these disorders. Most serial killers do.

I'm not certain if your 'Axis' would be what they call in the UK 'Clusters' in sounds like your talking cluster B. So I agree with that if they equate.

As I've said before there does not seem to be world wide accord. The scandivinians having different results, schizophrenia having higher proportions of Grandious in the far East. Its something I'd like to discover more about.

But that's not what I'm talking about. In modern times, someone comes in with delusions they are immediately put on antipsychotics. Which is how you treat schizophrenia. Antipsychotics will stop delusions whether you are schizophrenic or are seriously sleep deprived. So the pills don't care why you broke, they just stop the delusions. A schizophrenic may still have some cognitive difficulties, but they will be pretty much normal after treatment. So if you give someone antipsychotics and they are fixed, that's likely schizophrenia. Someone whose delusions are not caused by schizophrenia will still have the symptoms of whatever caused it. So if a Bipolar person becomes delusional, they are given antipsychotics and the delusions will go away, but the Bipolar will remain. So if antipsychotics fix the delusions but there is still a big underlying problem, it likely wasn't schizophrenia. And Bipolar or insomnia or PTSD, etc. are not personality disorders. They are Axis I or medical disorders. There is structural defect, there is chemical defect, they can be treated with medication. They are not diseases that are in conjunction with schizophrenia. They are an alternate diagnosis to schizophrenia. I think mania caused the delusions. So a mood disorder, not a schizophreniform disorder. But also not a personality disorder. Many of those tend to be tacked on to a person as poor coping mechanisms, so they often have little to do with major dysfunction, and more to do with small day to day dysfunction. Axis I disorders are why you end up in a hospital, Axis II disorders are why you don't have friends. as an example.

Given enough LSD, all human beings will have delusions. And as I've said before 'psychosis' is a dangerous condition but not only schizophrenics suffer Psychosis. As you have pointed out people with other conditions like Bi-Polar can also suffer ;Psychosis' People taking drugs have psychosis.

But delusions are symptom, and a symptom of many diseases. Schizophrenia is one of those diseases, but not the only one. Whether it was schizophrenia or mania, the killer likely also has personality disorders.

Agreed

Statistically they are less likely. They run at 2% while the "normal" population runs at about 7% or 8%. But normals also commit different crimes, so a schizophrenic almost never beats his wife to death, but he is also less likely to get or stay married. Schizophrenics don't knock over liquor stores, so they don't rack up the attendant death toll that goes with armed robbery, that kind of thing.

We've discussed these various percentages before and anomalies in different countries.

Are we really most likely? I suppose it makes sense, though more serial killers are diagnosed schizophrenic or schizoaffective after the fact by doctors conducting a one hour interview to determine competency for trial. Those diagnoses would never stick, so I never paid much attention to them other than to get irritated. I'm absolutely certain we don't lead the world, just the mentally ill community. I think apparently normal people still blaze that trail. Personally I would say Borderline people make the most sense as serial killers, but I have no numbers to back that up.

Bipolar is the correct term, because in the past 30 years or so they made the discovery that most people suffering from this disease are not manic and then depressed, the way the name would indicate. There is depression, there is major depression which is worse and lasts longer. There is mania, and there is hypomania, which is not as bad as full mania, and there are mixed episodes where depression and hypomania happen at the same time. And a sufferer tends to swing between two of these five states. So I swing between major depression and mixed episodes. I've been manic all of once, when I was 16. I am Bipolar, I have two poles. But I am not manic depressive and never have been. So they changed the name in the DSM IV, and now it's bipolar. Some people get offended by manic depressive, some don't. I don't. But Bipolar is descriptively more correct. And is now the official name of the disease.

Yes I apolguise if my comments caused any offence that was not intended. I can only add that the updated program will be looking at mental health in more detail we have already interviewed a number of experts on 19th century Asylums. It is not my intention to vilify people with mental health problems, actually the exact opposite. I will continue to treat the subject with as much sensitivity as possible. Its good to be reminded that we are dealing with real people and real lives. Poeple who have a pretty tough time and are often pushed under the carpet in the UK….much to be done

But I will say that we tend to feel things more than other people, not surprisingly. So while our impulse control might be crap, we are also are incapable of dissociating to the point that we can't feel what we are doing. And most people can do that fairly easily. Which I would think would make for a lousy serial killer, and the guilt is no joke on the depressive side. I mean, I'm half Jewish, half Catholic, AND Bipolar, so yeah I'm the girl who woke her father up at 2 in the morning when I was 17 to confess to smoking a joint, and I cannot possibly convey to you how little he cared.

Drugs and Mental health, not a good mixture.

It may not be lust at all, though I know the term applies to the areas of the body attacked and not necessarily the motive. But it is rare, and there are not a lot of other cases we can look to compare. If I were to guess, I would say that Dahmer and Gein are the cases that will teach us the most about this guy, but it's more a gut feeling than a reasoned statement.

Yes Lust or sex, in its broadest term…perhaps fetish would be a better word. But I'm using the word largely as Rob House describes in Prime Suspect where he deals with the subject at length with Hazelwood

Today it absolutely would be. I don't know how much it would inform his delusions, everyone is different there. But yes unless his frontal lobe was also deficient it would definitely not be recommended.

When I say that stress is damaging to unmedicated schizophrenics, I mean that biologically. Stress shreds our brains literally, we lose neurons, we shred telomeres, our electrical activity gets erratic. That's why it's hard to think when we are stressed. But we have healthy brains so we can take a lot. Schizophrenics brains are collapsing, and their electrical connections are compromised. So not only can stress trigger a delusional episode, it can cause their cognitive deficits to get a lot worse, and not recover. So a schizophrenic whose father has just died, say, who had minor cognitive deficits before can come out the other end with significant cognitive deficits that might not get better. The may lose the ability to communicate effectively. Nowadays medication offers enough support that the brain can usually recover from that, but clearly back then it wasn't available.

But in 1888 it might not have been a big deal. Death and carcasses were sort of all around, and there would have been ample time for him to get used to it. It would all depend on empathy. Nowadays we empathize with animals. None of us want to see a cow killed for the steaks we eat, and yes it's hypocritical. Back then the empathy for animals was not as strong. And while the gore involved with being a butcher was above the average exposure, that wouldn't be stressful if there wasn't empathy. Now in this case we are talking about a Jew and therefor looking at a shochet instead of a regular butcher. And shochetry (I may have made up that word) would be easier for someone with empathy for animals. But if they didn't have a lot of empathy, then they didn't have it. And it didn't matter where they worked or how.

I don't particularly see that being an issue with Kosminski, I think that his stress points probably involved his family. Speaking from experience I can say that mental illness, even when you are perfectly fine, puts a huge strain on family who want you to be okay, and often have very definite ideas as to how that needs to happen, and it's constant pushing. It's why I don't blame him for pulling a knife on his sister. I punched my sister in the face. It's the nagging that is just infuriating, frustrating, and scary. You'll do anything to stop it and get away.

I'm trying to piece together more about Aarons family environment, his wider family and the trades they undertook.

While his brother was a master Taylor, and his brother in law a Boot maker, His grandfather on his Mothers side was a Butcher. So he grew up in these environments. "He occupied several premises"

Yours Jeff