Suspect battle: Cross/Lechmere vs. Hutchinson

[GUT]

GUT,

Are you really suggesting that you have an alternative genealogy for Charles Allen Lechmere? One that you would prefer to do a 'Pierre' on rather than state definitely? Good luck with that, mate.

While you're at it, can you dig up some dirt on the Tomkins brothers in Manchester? It might be 'case solved', if you did.

Gary

No, what I am saying is that there could be a Charles (or George) cross that could have been the finder of Polly.

[MrBarnett]

No, what I am saying is that there could be a Charles (or George) cross that could have been the finder of Polly.

One who lived in Doveton Street with Charles Lechmere, whose 'stepfather' had been Thomas Cross? And had the same occupation as CAL?

[GUT]

One who lived in Doveton Street with Charles Lechmere, whose 'stepfather' had been Thomas Cross? And had the same occupation as CAL?

I don't know where they lived in 1888 unfortunately it wasn't a census year, they were nephews and cousins of a Thomas Cross (not yet certain if it was the same Thomas Cross, and as Pickfords records are long gone, as I'm sure you know, I don't know if they worked for Pickfords, at least one was a cart driver at one point.

[MrBarnett]

I don't know where they lived in 1888 unfortunately it wasn't a census year, they were nephews and cousins of a Thomas Cross (not yet certain if it was the same Thomas Cross, and as Pickfords records are long gone, as I'm sure you know, I don't know if they worked for Pickfords, at least one was a cart driver at one point.

Electoral records should exist to show where they lived.

The identification of the witness at Nichol's inquest is based largely on the address, I would have thought. The Cross/Lechmere name and the occupation add further support to that. The fact that CAL was born in Soho and his mother in Herefordshire make tracing them somewhat easier than the East End norm.

[John Wheat]

Indeed. And it would have been even easier for the police to have knocked at a few more doors in Buck's Row to find out whether they had heard Polly's steel-tipped heels clattering along the cobbles - but they didn't.

That's all irrelevant to my point.

[GUT]

Electoral records should exist to show where they lived.

The identification of the witness at Nichol's inquest is based largely on the address, I would have thought. The Cross/Lechmere name and the occupation add further support to that. The fact that CAL was born in Soho and his mother in Herefordshire make tracing them somewhat easier than the East End norm.

Electoral records for 1888

When less than half males had the vote.

[DJA]

Reform Act 1832 reminds me of Oz right now.
Travel rorts for the pollies,big corporations paying no tax and Centrelink hell for the poor.

[MrBarnett]

Electoral records for 1888

When less than half males had the vote.

No, electoral register for 1889, compiled in the last quarter of 1888. Charles Lechmere's on it. No wonder you're still at the 'probably' stage.

[MrBarnett]

'... was a cart driver at some point.' That pretty well nails it then.

A much better fit than CAL, who was a carman from at least 1870 to 1901. And incidentally was recorded as working for a Railway Agent in 1901. (Remind me, who were the main railway carriers at the time - there was Carter Paterson, and another one - it's on the tip of my tongue... I think it begins with a P...)

I can't wait for the big reveal (probably).

[Fisherman]

Let me see if IŽve got this correct.

It is suggested that there was another carman living in 22 Doveton Street together with Charles Lechmere and his family? And this other carman was a relative of Thomas Cross and named Charles Cross? And he had been a carman for twenty years, just like Charles Lechmere? And he, not Charles Lechmere, was the person who was found standing by the body of Polly Nichols on the murder morning?

Would that cover things? Is that the suggestion made?

[MrBarnett]

Let me see if IŽve got this correct.

It is suggested that there was another carman living in 22 Doveton Street together with Charles Lechmere and his family? And this other carman was a relative of Thomas Cross and named Charles Cross? And he had been a carman for twenty years, just like Charles Lechmere? And he, not Charles Lechmere, was the person who was found standing by the body of Polly Nichols on the murder morning?

Would that cover things? Is that the suggestion made?

Don't forget his middle name was probably Allen.

What're you gonna do at the weekends now, Fish?

[GUT]

Let me see if IŽve got this correct.

It is suggested that there was another carman living in 22 Doveton Street together with Charles Lechmere and his family? And this other carman was a relative of Thomas Cross and named Charles Cross? And he had been a carman for twenty years, just like Charles Lechmere? And he, not Charles Lechmere, was the person who was found standing by the body of Polly Nichols on the murder morning?

Would that cover things? Is that the suggestion made?

No it's not suggested he lived there it is pondered if he may have.

He was a relative of a Thomas Cross, was it the same Thomas Cross? Not sure at this point. Had he been a carman for 20 years, again not sure, but ended up being described as a carter.

Again not saying he was the one found over the body, it needs more research.

But I understand that it must really upset Lechmere fanatics, because if your summary is correct it gives some real problems to Lech fans.

[Fisherman]

Don't forget his middle name was probably Allen.

What're you gonna do at the weekends now, Fish?

Yes, I forgot that point about the middle name. Fascinating.

Not sure about my weekends, IŽll have to think that over seriously.

[Fisherman]

No it's not suggested he lived there it is pondered if he may have.

He was a relative of a Thomas Cross, was it the same Thomas Cross? Not sure at this point. Had he been a carman for 20 years, again not sure, but ended up being described as a carter.

Again not saying he was the one found over the body, it needs more research.

But I understand that it must really upset Lechmere fanatics, because if your summary is correct it gives some real problems to Lech fans.

Aha.

So you are not saying that Charles Cross - the Thomas Cross relative who was NOT Charles Lechmere - lived in 22 Doveton Street?

You are not saying that Charles Cross - the Thomas Cross relative who was NOT Charles Lechmere - worked as a carman for twenty years?

And you are not saying that Charles Cross - the Thomas Cross relative who was NOT Charles Lechmere - was the man who was found with the body of Polly Nichols?

You are merely suggesting it as a viable theory? And you are rejoicing in the idea about how it would really upset "Lechmere fanatics" if this was so?

Two answers:

1. The mere idea is of course ridiculous.

2. The only "Lechmere fanatics" there are, are against the Lechmere theory, not for it. So they should be quite happy about your scenario instead of upset.

[MrBarnett]

Yes, I forgot that point about the middle name. Fascinating.

Not sure about my weekends, IŽll have to think that over seriously.

You could always join Team Tomkins.