William Grant Grainger and censorship

[Cogidubnus]

I think that's a very sad posting Debs, and I'm sorry to read it...

All the best

Dave

[Sally]

Eye colour

The discrepancy could simply be down to error. 'Hazel' is a rather subjective term. My eyes have been called hazel, although technically, they're not. thye've also been called blue on occasion - although again, they're not. Colour can appear to be quite different depending on light conditions.

Eye colour can change, from disease for example.

[curious]

The discrepancy could simply be down to error. 'Hazel' is a rather subjective term. My eyes have been called hazel, although technically, they're not. thye've also been called blue on occasion - although again, they're not. Colour can appear to be quite different depending on light conditions.

Eye colour can change, from disease for example.

Or eye color can sometimes depend on what a person is wearing. Mine have been called hazel and green, but mostly brown.

Or on how closely a person is looking. From a distance, my eyes always look brown, but they have all these interesting flecks in them when checked up close.

curious

[Abby Normal]

The discrepancy could simply be down to error. 'Hazel' is a rather subjective term. My eyes have been called hazel, although technically, they're not. thye've also been called blue on occasion - although again, they're not. Colour can appear to be quite different depending on light conditions.

Eye colour can change, from disease for example.

I have green eyes, but for some reason in the morning after a night of drinking they're red?!?


What color is hazel, BTW?

[Sally]

I have green eyes, but for some reason in the morning after a night of drinking they're red?!?

Red?!? What could possibly account for that?*

What color is hazel, BTW?

Here 's one definition that should demonstrate how objective 'Hazel' is - 'Eyes which are a mixture of light/golden brown and green and sometimes a little of gray' (Urban Dictionary, although most definitions I've seen are similar)

*

[Cogidubnus]

I'm sorry if my innocent query has caused such a kefuffle...what made me raise the query was that it was hazel vs blue...if it was grey vs blue or even pale green vs either blue or grey I wouldn't bat an eyelid...a difference in the lighting conditions and you're there - but hazel vs blue seemed odd...even I can tell those apart and I'm partially colour blind...

Either way I certainly didn't intend to impugn (even unwittingly) the quality of Deb's research!

All the best

Dave

[Debra A]

Well, the hazel eyed William/Grant/Green/Grainger was living at 3 different addresses known to be connected to the blue eyed ship's fireman William Grant/Grainger plus there's the other half dozen matches in their descriptions that I mentioned in my post, so obviously mistakes must happen, you know..

[Cogidubnus]

Well, the hazel eyed William/Grant/Green/Grainger was living at 3 different addresses known to be connected to the blue eyed ship's fireman William Grant/Grainger plus there's the other half dozen matches in their descriptions that I mentioned in my post, so obviously mistakes must happen, you know..

That's interesting Debs...I'm sorry if I didn't spot the coincidences of address or description posted here...but I did see no fewer than three English habitual offenders register entries (1902, 1905, 1907) here showing dark brown hair eventually turning grey (balding) which suggests to me that the entries weren't simply copied from one book to another, but freshly penned each time...The two relatively unchanging entries seem to relate to the tattooes and the blue eyes...the tattooes are described slightly differently each time (again indicating these are not simply copied entries) but all three times the eyes are shown as blue.

So if the Irish prison entries equally consistently refer to hazel eyes then we may have a problem...So the question I guess I have to pose is do they?

I honestly thought I put it more pleasantly first time round, but it seems I was wrong, and I freely apologise if that is the case

All the very best

Dave

[Debra A]

That's interesting Debs...I'm sorry if I didn't spot the coincidences of address or description posted here...but I did see no fewer than three English habitual offenders register entries (1902, 1905, 1907) here showing dark brown hair eventually turning grey (balding) which suggests to me that the entries weren't simply copied from one book to another, but freshly penned each time...The two relatively unchanging entries seem to relate to the tattooes and the blue eyes...the tattooes are described slightly differently each time (again indicating these are not simply copied entries) but all three times the eyes are shown as blue.

So if the Irish prison entries equally consistently refer to hazel eyes then we may have a problem...So the question I guess I have to pose is do they?

I honestly thought I put it more pleasantly first time round, but it seems I was wrong, and I freely apologise if that is the case

All the very best

Dave

They are consistently described as hazel in the Irish prison records.
Also- the distinguishing marks are always tumour and sear on neck back of both hands tattooed. Never any more or less detail.
Perhaps it is the Irish records that are copied one from another and an initial mistake carried over?

If not, we are dealing with two men name William Grainger, both of whom used the alias William Grant, both born the same year in Cork, both having lived at Ballyhooly Rd and Cockpit Lane, both of the same height, tattooed, same hair colour, same occupation of sailor and ships fireman, one being in Cork when the other one was believed to be in the same city at the exact same times between 1887-and 1891 when checked out.

[Debra A]

Blue, grey or hazel?

Following on from what Curious and Sally were saying:
What colour is this eye?

[Sally]

Mine are very similar - look different in different lights. You see the problem.

'Hazel' is a highly subjective descriptive term.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Debs

Sorry about the delay in replying, but I wasn't about yesterday (it being my birthday!)...I'm genuinely sorry that this thread should be the cause of tension between us.

Since the eye colour is consistently described as blue in the English records and, as you now advise, consistently hazel in the Irish records, hopefully you will now understand why I had misgivings.

With regard to Ballyhooly Road and Cockpit Lane, I try my best to follow these threads, but alas these references leave me mystified...are they perhaps unpublished research? Just where do these addresses come in please, as I can't find them on this thread or in any others I've seen ...am I missing something?

Just to make things doubly clear, there is, and never has been, any question of my treating yourself or your research, either lightly or disrespectfully. As I've stated previously, I firmly believe the future of "Ripperology" lies in the stalwart efforts of dedicated researchers such as yourself.

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Following on from what Curious and Sally were saying:
What colour is this eye?

Sorry...I'm really not taking the pee, but undoubtedly Hazel (You couldn't honestly say blue)

Dave

[Debra A]

Sorry about the delay in replying, but I wasn't about yesterday (it being my birthday!)...I'm genuinely sorry that this thread should be the cause of tension between us.

No tension, just bewilderment on my part to be honest.

Since the eye colour is consistently described as blue in the English records and, as you now advise, consistently hazel in the Irish records, hopefully you will now understand why I had misgivings.

I do understand your point. His eyes are consistently blue in the English records and hazel in this Irish ones. If there was ambiguity on colour then I'd expect to see blue appearing the Irish records occasionally, this is why I also wrote that nothing appears to have changed in the Irish records-the distinguishing marks column always reads exactly the same, so I will ask again-Maybe the Irish records were just copied over after an initial mistake in eye colour being recorded? What is the problem with that idea?

With regard to Ballyhooly Road and Cockpit Lane, I try my best to follow these threads, but alas these references leave me mystified...are they perhaps unpublished research? Just where do these addresses come in please, as I can't find them on this thread or in any others I've seen ...am I missing something?

The Cockpit Lane is part of research done by the poster Nemo. Grainger gave this address in the Cork workhouse ( a place we know from contemporary sources the suspect Grainger frequented)

Ballyhooley Rd is mentioned in this post by Chris P- Grainger's parents were living there where he and other siblings were christened. It appears in Graingers earlier Irish Prison register entries c late 1870s

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=185170&postcount=67

Barrackton is mentioned in this post, again excellent research by Chris Phillips, it isn't certain this is the death of Grainger's mother but it's also an address that appears in Grainger's prison records later in time:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=188033&postcount=80

[Debra A]

Sorry...I'm really not taking the pee, but undoubtedly Hazel (You couldn't honestly say blue)

Dave

Yet some of the people in the three pages of answers following the query did say just that!