So what if the Ripper was Jewish?

[Abby Normal]

Hi errata
Good post. Especially the last two sentences.

[Abby Normal]

I shouldn't complain if I am not contributing myself, but I am afraid that I don't have the necessary amount of time at my disposal.

Hi Colin
I have also very much enjoyed your posts and the research that you have provided.
I was especially intrigued by the statistical work you gave on the number of women killed by knife and the spike it showed for the year 1888 that pretty much matched up with the number of possible/probable ripper victims.

For a relative noob that I am, I for one have learned much from your posts. Hope you stay.

[Scott Nelson]

They had a profile for Jack the Ripper. They thought he was insane. Gibbering, violent, uncontrollable wild beast insane.

Insane, yes. But not necessarily gibbering, violent and of an uncontrollable nature. See Dr. Bond's profile to Anderson, for example. But, of course, several suspects kept under close surveillance did display some of these aspects. Many newspaper reports of the crimes remarked on the killer's great daring or cunning abilities.

[Errata]

Insane, yes. But not necessarily gibbering, violent and of an uncontrollable nature. See Dr. Bond's profile to Anderson, for example. But, of course, several suspects kept under close surveillance did display some of these aspects. Many newspaper reports of the crimes remarked on the killer's great daring or cunning abilities.

Yes, but actual cunning or animal cunning? Because animal cunning was a popular thing back then, often applied to the mad, the non Christian, the Non White... In fact it persisted until Brown vs. The Board of Education here and it was the basis for "separate but equal" schools. Whites were considered to have intelligence, blacks were considered to have "animal cunning".

And newspapers were also publishing Ripper letters that they themselves wrote, so I'm not sure how in line the papers were with police theory.

And I don't mean to pick on this one theory with this. I happen to think it was less likely that the Ripper was Jewish than other people do. If I'm wrong I will lose no sleep. It's a problem I have with most suspect oriented posts. What we don't know is an ocean to the teacup of what we do know. Basic criminology is something most of us understand, because we've seen movies and stuff, but they didn't understand in 1888. We have a lot of information on serial killers available to us that the police in the LVP did not have. And while we might understand some basic assumptions (like a serial killer has to be mad to be a serial killer) we also know that 99% of serial killers aren't at all the way we pictured them to be. In 1888, these guys were way more often wrong than right. So in addition to having very few resources, we can't even trust the opinions of the people in a position to know, because they were looking for the wrong thing.

It's like someone gave them a sketch of a guy they dreamed did the murders, and the cops took that as fact. The sketch might resemble the actual killer, but only because of astonishing luck, not any actual knowledge. So if 100 years later you stumble on a picture of a guy who resembles that sketch, what are the real odds that guy you found is actually the killer? And how do you back that up other than pointing out how much he looks like a sketch of dubious origin?

[Roy Corduroy]

But searching Jews who lived in London in 1888 isn't going to find him. Which is pretty much how Levy as a suspect came about, and also through a series of assumptions that have no facts backing them up.

I thought the impetus to research Jacob Levy was the recollections of City of London Police detectives Henry Cox and Robert Sagar. They watched a man. Jacob Levy in some ways fits their scenario. It could have been him.

Apropos of that, Scott Nelson wrote an article entitled 'The Butchers Row Suspect' which can be read here on Casebook, although he suggested a different possibility.

I consider the Jewish suspect to be a valid avenue of research. But it's only one area. I'm still a little perplexed by Abby's comments on the other thread - 'why haven't researchers looked at any gentile madmen' when in fact James Kelly had an entire book written about him.

Roy

[Abby Normal]

I thought the impetus to research Jacob Levy was the recollections of City of London Police detectives Henry Cox and Robert Sagar. They watched a man. Jacob Levy in some ways fits their scenario. It could have been him.

Apropos of that, Scott Nelson wrote an article entitled 'The Butchers Row Suspect' which can be read here on Casebook, although he suggested a different possibility.

I consider the Jewish suspect to be a valid avenue of research. But it's only one area. I'm still a little perplexed by Abby's comments on the other thread - 'why haven't researchers looked at any gentile madmen' when in fact James Kelly had an entire book written about him.

Roy

Hi Roy
Cox and sagar never said the man they watched was Jewish and Kelly was a person of interest at the time.

Anderson's Jew was Kosminsky.

Not:
Cohen
Kaminsky
Butchers row suspect
Hyam hyams
Jacob levy

It's a wild goose chase. Or crazy Jew chase. Enough. Show me any relation of a person to the actual case then we can call them a potential suspect.

[Roy Corduroy]

... and Kelly was a person of interest at the time.

Yes James Kelly was a person of interest at the time. But not in the sense that Sadler, Pizer, or Ludwig was a person of interest 'at the time' that we can read about in transcripts of newspapers or police reports of the time. Which he have available thanks to the work of others.

It wasn't until research was conducted in the 1990's the fact was uncovered that detectives went looking for James Kelly. Research. I thought you knew that. So yes I'm still perplexed when you ask has anyone ever thought of researching gentile madmen. Which in the case of Kelly was done thoroughly twenty years ago.

It's a wild goose chase. Or crazy Jew chase.

That's your opinion of people's research. Okay. I'm not here to change your mind.

Roy

[Abby Normal]

Yes James Kelly was a person of interest at the time. But not in the sense that Sadler, Pizer, or Ludwig was a person of interest 'at the time' that we can read about in transcripts of newspapers or police reports of the time. Which he have available thanks to the work of others.

It wasn't until research was conducted in the 1990's the fact was uncovered that detectives went looking for James Kelly. Research. I thought you knew that. So yes I'm still perplexed when you ask has anyone ever thought of researching gentile madmen. Which in the case of Kelly was done thoroughly twenty years ago.



That's your opinion of people's research. Okay. I'm not here to change your mind.

Roy

Hi Roy
My intention was not to disparage anyone's research, quite the contrary. A lot of great info has come from the research. It's when you try to tag someone with a suspect label that I have issues with, when they have absolutely nothing that ties them to the case.

[tji]

Yes. Jack the Ripper could have been Jewish. But he was statistically more likely to have been Christian, and based on what we know (which is almost nothing) he could have been Sufi. The only thing we have that tilts the scales more towards a Jewish suspect is Anderson's book. A book that has three wrong statements for every correct one. There is no evidence pointing towards a Jewish suspect.

Charles Booth recorded how in 1888 -

"The newcomers have gradually replaced the English population in whole districts…Formerly in Whitechapel, Commercial Street roughly divided the Jewish haunts of Petticoat Lane and Goulston Street from the rougher English quarter lying in the East [this would have been the area of Wentworth Street and Brick Lane]. Now the Jews have flowed across the line; Hanbury Street, Fashion Street, Pelham Street, Booth Street, Old Montague Street, and many streets and lanes and alleys have fallen before them; they fill whole blocks of model dwellings; they have introduced new trades as well as new habits and they live and crowd together and work and meet their fate independent of the great stream of London life surging around them."

Now maybe the whole of the East End wasn't Jewish, but it seems that the area of whitechapel has a huge influx of Jewish people - in 1888 at least, this owuld make it predominantly Jewish.

So either he was or he wasn't.

Erm yeah I think we all can work that one out!

Which is pretty much how Levy as a suspect came about, and also through a series of assumptions that have no facts backing them up.

Good post. Especially the last two sentences.

Silly me I thought it was years of research and fact finding that put forward Jacob as a suspect. Obviously I must have just assumed that.

So tell me what facts do you think a viable suspect should have since you obviously are so against the ones put forward -

what age should he be?
what ethnicity?
what job?
what area of home and work?
what mental illness?
what prior record?
what possible motive for the killing of prostitutes?
what possible stressor may he have had?
what knowledge of the area?
what family members link to the area of the apron? (and gsg if you believe it to be linked)
what link to a possible witness should they have?
what links to the area should they have?

No suspect put forward can give you proof positive, so we are going back over as a community if this is what we are looking at when discussing suspects.

If the best answer that you can give after the case being cold for 120 year in which we have no physical evidence, barely any photograph, no living witness, information ruined, lost, stolen is 'you have no physical evidence' or it is all circumstantial then I will take that all day long.

Hi Observer

Joseph Hyam Levy stated that the man he saw was 3" taller then Eddoews......she was 5ft.

Tracy

[Scott Nelson]

Cox and sagar never said the man they watched was Jewish....

True, but Cox's story strongly suggests the suspect he watched was Jewish.

[jason_c]

Im reminded of the last decade in Rotherham when it comes to Jack the Ripper and the Jewish question. The link may be flippant on my part, but I suspect the possibility of some co-ordinated police reaction to a strong Jewish suspect. Both cases include racial tension and a large immigrant population. Racial tensions that the police were obviously concerned with in the LVP.

[Observer]

Joseph Hyam Levy stated that the man he saw was 3" taller then Eddoews......she was 5ft.

Tracy

Joseph Lawende said he was five six, or five seven, and his was the description put out by the police. So who do we believe?

[Observer]

Oh I forgot, Levy recognised his cousin Jacob, so yes you're probably correct, the suspect was five three.

[Scott Nelson]

If Levy recognized a relative who was Jacob, then yes, he was probably closer to 5 ft 3 in.

[Observer]

Absolutely. Of course, Joe Levy's behaviour during the days following the murder was very very mysterious, very suspicious indeed. He knew more than he was letting on! You know, when he learnt of Eddowes murder he must have realised that his relative was Jack The Ripper. Lord knows what horrors he went through when he learnt what his cousin had done to Mary Kelly. What a secret to take to the grave poor man.