The "Suspects": Current Opinion

[Varqm]

Lechmere can but won't...

[Harry D]

Hi Harry,sir Melville found no need to mention him in his famous memo I'm quite sure he would have if there was anything on him

Yeah, but then MacNaughten's memo included Ostrog, who certainly isn't a viable suspect, so I don't think this is necessarily a mark against Levy.

also if my memory serves me right wasn't a reward of 500 quid offerd after Kelly's appalling murder I think any one who didn't want to grass on a relative or friend might be tempted by this amount which I think is about 50000 grand in today's money.

Who knew Jacob Levy was the Ripper? What proof would they have? Joseph Hyam Levy is the likeliest candidate, but he never caught his cousin in the act, only saw him with Eddowes on that ill-fated night. And would he be prepared to shop his cousin and fellow Jew to the authorities knowing the social repercussions it might have, not only for himself but the Jewish community at large?

[pinkmoon]

Yeah, but then MacNaughten's memo included Ostrog, who certainly isn't a viable suspect, so I don't think this is necessarily a mark against Levy.



Who knew Jacob Levy was the Ripper? What proof would they have? Joseph Hyam Levy is the likeliest candidate, but he never caught his cousin in the act, only saw him with Eddowes on that ill-fated night. And would he be prepared to shop his cousin and fellow Jew to the authorities knowing the social repercussions it might have, not only for himself but the Jewish community at large?

I think ostrog must have come to the police's attention at some time during this investigation however I think he was another unlikely suspect who was looked at by a very desperate police force when you have no real suspect anyone no matter how unlikely must look good.

[Fisherman]

I think ostrog must have come to the police's attention at some time during this investigation however I think he was another unlikely suspect who was looked at by a very desperate police force when you have no real suspect anyone no matter how unlikely must look good.

That wonīt be far off the mark, Pink. Whenever I look at this topic, I get the uneasy feeling that the police elevated people who answered to a list of shortcomings like lunacy, nightly promenades, a track record in the meat business and a foreign extraction into suspects.

It was seemingly a case of boxticking in these departments first, suspect status ensuing, no evidence required.

Basically, I think this was what had the likes of Issenschmid and Kosminski suspected back then - and, oddly, has people like Hyams and Levy suspected nowadays. Give the looneybin a shakedown and see what comes tumbling out ...

The best,
Fisherman

[pinkmoon]

That wonīt be far off the mark, Pink. Whenever I look at this topic, I get the uneasy feeling that the police elevated people who answered to a list of shortcomings like lunacy, nightly promenades, a track record in the meat business and a foreign extraction into suspects.

It was seemingly a case of boxticking in these departments first, suspect status ensuing, no evidence required.

Basically, I think this was what had the likes of Issenschmid and Kosminski suspected back then - and, oddly, has people like Hyams and Levy suspected nowadays. Give the looneybin a shakedown and see what comes tumbling out ...

The best,
Fisherman

Hi fisherman,By picking up a knife two years after the murders living locally and been a loon made kosminski jack the ripper in some people's eyes like I said before when you have no suspect or evidence anything or anyone would look good to the police.

[Harry D]

Hello Fisherman,

Tell me what makes Levy a less viable suspect than any other name in the frame. If you can't answer that question sufficiently, then perhaps those methods aren't so questionable after all?

[pinkmoon]

Hello Fisherman,

Tell me what makes Levy a less viable suspect than any other name in the frame. If you can't answer that question sufficiently, then perhaps those methods aren't so questionable after all?

Nothing at all wrong with proposing anyone as jack the ripper just that some contenders have at least been mentioned by the police at the time .

[Harry D]

I was talking in relation to the "giving the looneybin a shakedown" comment, as if that's not a viable method, even if it turns up someone like Jacob Levy, who ticks every box for the murders. There seems to be a degree of resistance towards most suspects who are tarred with the mad brush. As if that automatically means the killer was a raving idiot unfit to tap up a local whore and blitz her. Luck had as much a part to play in Jack's success as anything.

Likewise, people are seemingly afraid of fingering a Jewish suspect for the crimes, lest they be charged with 'antisemitism', nevermind that Whitechapel was densely populated with Jewish immigrants. It's a statistical probability that the Ripper was a Jew, in much the same way that a local serial killer in Harlem would most likely turn out to be black. It doesn't mean that their ethnicity has any bearing on their crimes Or are the Jews really the men that will be blamed for nothing?

[pinkmoon]

I was talking in relation to the "giving the looneybin a shakedown" comment, as if that's not a viable method, even if it turns up someone like Jacob Levy, who ticks every box for the murders. There seems to be a degree of resistance towards most suspects who are tarred with the mad brush. As if that automatically means the killer was a raving idiot unfit to tap up a local whore and blitz her. Luck had as much a part to play in Jack's success as anything.

Likewise, people are seemingly afraid of fingering a Jewish suspect for the crimes, lest they be charged with 'antisemitism', nevermind that Whitechapel was densely populated with Jewish immigrants. It's a statistical probability that the Ripper was a Jew, in much the same way that a local serial killer in Harlem would most likely turn out to be black. It doesn't mean that their ethnicity has any bearing on their crimes Or are the Jews really the men that will be blamed for nothing?

Hi Harry,a very important thing to consider when trying to propose any one as our killer is not so much why he started killing but why he stopped I'm sure the police thought this at the time.When you view the revolting photo of poor Mary Kelly it's very hard to believe that whoever was doing this suddenly got better and stopped.The police must have worked on the simple theory that our killer died or was locked up in a prison or asylum so it makes sense for the police to have something in place If any such person arrived pretty quickly after the Kelly murder in an asylum.would somebody like levy arriving in an asylum in 1890 nearly twos after trigger anything in the police force who knows he may have been ignored maybe some research into him might make as all sit up and listen.Something else people have ignored over the years is the lack of witnesses to such daring crimes it is quite possible someone saw something or possibly disturbed our killer shortly before or even during one of his murders and did not come forward.

[Wickerman]

.... even if it turns up someone like Jacob Levy, who ticks every box for the murders.

But who is to say you have the right boxes?
Consider a number of suggestions by Prosector where there are strong indications within the mutilations of Eddowes which suggest a significant degree of medical knowledge, specifically with respect to human anatomy and bodily functions.
How does that square with a butcher?

There seems to be a degree of resistance towards most suspects who are tarred with the mad brush.

I can't imagine someone visibly 'mad' being a realistic candidate. Such a person is more likely to draw attention to himself and, scare off any prostitutes.

Luck had as much a part to play in Jack's success as anything.

No question about it, ...Napoleon would have enlisted him for sure.

It's a statistical probability that the Ripper was a Jew, in much the same way that a local serial killer in Harlem would most likely turn out to be black.

Statistics can tell you anything you want them to. Statistically we can deduce his skin colour, his age, his eye colour, his social status, hair colour, even perhaps his height.
We can describe him statistically from head to toe, but when we've done all that it means nothing in real terms.
If the real killer was 'like every body else' - statistically, then he wouldn't have been a killer.
Some thing (or things) about him were different, and we don't know what any of those 'things' were.

Levy isn't a bad suspect, it's just that he's no more likely than his next door neighbor, and he had thousands of neighbors. Levy is just as viable as any East End male between 20 and 60, arguably, so we can't rule him out.

[Observer]

Yeah, but then MacNaughten's memo included Ostrog, who certainly isn't a viable suspect, so I don't think this is necessarily a mark against Levy.



Who knew Jacob Levy was the Ripper? What proof would they have? Joseph Hyam Levy is the likeliest candidate, but he never caught his cousin in the act, only saw him with Eddowes on that ill-fated night. And would he be prepared to shop his cousin and fellow Jew to the authorities knowing the social repercussions it might have, not only for himself but the Jewish community at large?

So Joe Levy saw his cousin with Eddowes Harry? I take it Jacob Levy was unknown to Lawende and Harris then?

[Fisherman]

Hello Fisherman,

Tell me what makes Levy a less viable suspect than any other name in the frame. If you can't answer that question sufficiently, then perhaps those methods aren't so questionable after all?

Levy was not suspected by the police at the time - other suspects were.

Levy cannot be tied to any of the murder sites - other suspects can.

Levy was not thinking straight - he heard strange noises, cried for no reason and felt compelled to do things. He sounds deranged and possibly psychotic to my ears. If he was the killer, I would have expected him to stay by his victims and hack away until somebody pulled him away from the site. I suspect the killer was a lot more cunning, calculating and resourceful than Levy.

Is that a sufficient enough answer?

All the best,
Fisherman

[tji]

Hi Pinkmoon

Hi Harry,a very important thing to consider when trying to propose any one as our killer is not so much why he started killing but why he stopped I'm sure the police thought this at the time.When you view the revolting photo of poor Mary Kelly it's very hard to believe that whoever was doing this suddenly got better and stopped.

One possible explanation we have put forward for this is the fact that Jacob was suffering from neurosyphilis. The last stage of this (tertiary syphilis) lasts about 5 years before death occurs. It is possible that at the onset of this stage (for us it would be around 1886 his first arrest) he was still functioning 'normally' but it would slowly rob him of his health mentally and physically until his death in 1891. So it isn't inconceivable to believe he had to stop killing due to the symptoms of the syphilis worsening.

Another factor could be that if you disclude Mary Kelly from the C5 (I don't like to) then it would be the case that Jtr never killed again after Joseph saw Jacob with Catherine Eddowes.

The police must have worked on the simple theory that our killer died or was locked up in a prison or asylum so it makes sense for the police to have something in place If any such person arrived pretty quickly after the Kelly murder in an asylum.would somebody like levy arriving in an asylum in 1890 nearly twos after trigger anything in the police force who knows he may have been ignored

Again due to his health he may not have been able to kill again, then he was locked up in an asylum.

maybe some research into him might make as all sit up and listen

Hi Wicker

But who is to say you have the right boxes?

Who is to say he hasn't?

Consider a number of suggestions by Prosector where there are strong indications within the mutilations of Eddowes which suggest a significant degree of medical knowledge, specifically with respect to human anatomy and bodily functions.

Yes but then you can argue that some Doctors stated he didn't have any so we are no further forward.

How does that square with a butcher?

It is a middle man ground is it not, a butcher didn't have enough anatomical knowledge to be a Doctor. but he certainly would know enough to dissect and cut up bodies. It allows us an answer to the differences between opinions of the Doctor's of the time.

I can't imagine someone visibly 'mad' being a realistic candidate. Such a person is more likely to draw attention to himself and, scare off any prostitutes.

?? We have no reason to think he looked 'mad' he certainly would have had pock marked skin I would imagine, but then that wouldn't be that rare at the time.
His description into the asylums don't mention him looking abnormal so I would imagine he looked sane enough to interact with people without them fleeing, screaming into the night.

Statistics can tell you anything you want them to. Statistically we can deduce his skin colour, his age, his eye colour, his social status, hair colour, even perhaps his height.
We can describe him statistically from head to toe, but when we've done all that it means nothing in real terms.
If the real killer was 'like every body else' - statistically, then he wouldn't have been a killer.
Some thing (or things) about him were different, and we don't know what any of those 'things' were.

Yes we do.

Levy isn't a bad suspect, it's just that he's no more likely than his next door neighbor, and he had thousands of neighbors. Levy is just as viable as any East End male between 20 and 60, arguably, so we can't rule him out.

I am not sure how you can say he isn't more likely than his next door neighbor! There is no way Hyman Sampson was Jtr!

Hi Observer

So Joe Levy saw his cousin with Eddowes Harry? I take it Jacob Levy was unknown to Lawende and Harris then?

Not sure, Harris didn't see anything (apparently) and Lawende gave a description different to Joseph. We know Joseph Levy and Lawende remained friends through the years but we don't know to what extent they were friends.

Hey Fish

Levy was not suspected by the police at the time - other suspects were.

Yes but some of those suspects have been ruled out, so why can't others bu pushed in?

Levy was not thinking straight - he heard strange noises, cried for no reason and felt compelled to do things. He sounds deranged and possibly psychotic to my ears. If he was the killer, I would have expected him to stay by his victims and hack away until somebody pulled him away from the site. I suspect the killer was a lot more cunning, calculating and resourceful than Levy.

Fair enough, quite a plausible theory if you don't want to put Jtr in the mentally ill category.

Again though, just because they are delusional and hallucinate does not meant they can't comprehend the here and now. Look at the Richard Chase, he was delusional but knew enough to leave the scene before being caught.

Tracy

[Fisherman]

Tracy:

Hey Fish!

Hey Tracy! Hope youīre well!

Yes but some of those suspects have been ruled out, so why can't others be pushed in?

Believe me, they can. And WILL! What I responded to was why we cannot perhaps rate Levy as the top contender as Harry suggested, and in this context, he canīt compete with people like, say, Kosminsky (who I think resembled Lecy much in many a respect).
Otherwise, I am convinced that the killer was not amongst the contemporary police suspects.

Fair enough, quite a plausible theory if you don't want to put Jtr in the mentally ill category.

And I really donīt, as you know. Not normal, but not traditionally mentally ill either.

Again though, just because they are delusional and hallucinate does not meant they can't comprehend the here and now. Look at the Richard Chase, he was delusional but knew enough to leave the scene before being caught.

By which time he was done, right? I donīt think there is any example of him fleeing a scene when people happened upon it, but I havent read about Chase for a long time, so Iīm ready to stand corrected! As I remember things, he took his time and left when he was done, ignoring the fact that he left lots of trails behind him like footprints and such things. Not very Ripperish, is it?

The best,
Fisherman

[Wickerman]

Hi Tracy.

Who is to say he hasn't?

Which sounds like another way of saying we pick the boxes to suit the suspect?

Yes but then you can argue that some Doctors stated he didn't have any so we are no further forward.

Well, if I am allowed to paraphrase the words of Prosector - the original is available on Casebook.

1 - Where a section of colon was removed and the sigmoid flexure was invaginated into the rectum.

Prosector explained that this is precisely what surgeons & pathologists do when they have to remove the descending colon. Which is done to stop faeces from oozing back into the abdominal cavity.

2 - The careful removal of a kidney, located at the rear of the body and enveloped within a fatty membrane is something that comes with experience.

Surgeon or Butcher, possibly.

3 Removing the descending colon in order to access this organ is not the kind of procedure that comes to someone who has no medical training.

That speaks for itself.

4 - In any normal procedure for accessing the abdominal cavity by using a midline incision the normal practice is to skirt the cut around the umbilicus (belly button) but to the right.

This is standard practice for a surgeon when he is expected to sew up the patient after the operation or autopsy. The umbilicus is too tough to sew up so it is avoided and always to the right.
This is what we see done by the killer.

Conclusion, whoever killed and mutilated those women was no stranger to the medical profession.

It is a middle man ground is it not, a butcher didn't have enough anatomical knowledge to be a Doctor. but he certainly would know enough to dissect and cut up bodies.

Although I spent most of my adult life in Engineering, my first three years out of school was spent as a Butchers Apprentice.
I can confirm the butcher learns nothing to help him in points 1, 3 & 4 above.