Stride: Yes, No or God Knows?!

[etenguy]

In terms of time the murders of Stride ("after 12:45 AM") & Eddowes ("after 1:30 AM") were very close to each other. But I don´t think that the Stride murder was "planned" by the Ripper. Karsten.

I agree - a point to add for thinking Stride was a victim of the ripper are the times of the two murders - what you would expect if the murderer was interupted and looked for a second victim immediately afterwards having put some distance between himself and the murder scene of Elizabeth Stride.

[Lewis C]

I think (but am far from certain) that Stride was a Ripper victim, but I'm undecided, pretty much 50/50, about whether BS man killed her.

[Barnaby]

I'm not sure why the last choice is there. Choice A does not necessitate she was killed by BS man. So I'd cut the last choice if you just want to know if people think she is Ripper victim. If you really want to assess attitudes toward BS man too, choice A should be revised like the last choice as such "Stride was a Ripper victim and was killed by BS man."

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm not sure why the last choice is there. Choice A does not necessitate she was killed by BS man. So I'd cut the last choice if you just want to know if people think she is Ripper victim. If you really want to assess attitudes toward BS man too, choice A should be revised like the last choice as such "Stride was a Ripper victim and was killed by BS man."

On reflection i should have put - killed by BSMan the ripper - killed by BSMan not the ripper - killed by anon the ripper - killed by anon not the ripper.

It’s a bit late to scrap it and start again though. Initially I was just looking at ripper - yes or no.

[S.Brett]

I agree - a point to add for thinking Stride was a victim of the ripper are the times of the two murders - what you would expect if the murderer was interupted and looked for a second victim immediately afterwards having put some distance between himself and the murder scene of Elizabeth Stride.

... just briefly a few quickly thoughts... I´m very busy today...

IMO it is possible that there was no attack (as it was seen & described by Schwartz) but rather a drunken man who had molested a woman (Stride), a scene probably watched by the Ripper ("Pipeman"?). Maybe he demonstrated a behaviour of a man she could trust. But in his eyes she was an easy victim. A victim which appeared out of nothing.

Another idea:

BS Man was the Ripper and the attack on Stride was one of his usual assaults against a prostitute, something he often did. And for "Pipeman", hearing the word "Lipski" (or something similar) meant "catch him" because he thought Schwartz was the man who had attacked Stride shortly before & BS Man is a person who, now, does take care of her. I believe that Pipeman was found but could not described the BS Man because everything happened so quickly. In a scenario like this what did happen in the next 10-15 minutes? Maybe BS Man went away. Schwartz and "Pipeman" did not return to the spot. Did BS Man notice that Stride had seen him entering a house in the neighbourhood, did she shout something after him, something like "Now I know who you are, the man the police is looking for, the Whitechapel murderer, just a few minutes and the Constable (PC Smith) will discover where you lives." The rest is history, he killed Stride because she was a "witness" and then afterwards he killed Eddowes to fulfill his real intent.

Karsten.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Thanks to Fiver for adding a bit of red to the colour scheme.

[Sam Flynn]

I agree - a point to add for thinking Stride was a victim of the ripper are the times of the two murders - what you would expect if the murderer was interupted and looked for a second victim immediately afterwards having put some distance between himself and the murder scene of Elizabeth Stride.

I think that could be an argument against. The fact that he found a favourable victim under favourable circumstances relatively soon after the Stride murder decreases the likelihood that it was the same perpetrator, imho.

[Jon Guy]

Well, both victims, killed within an hour of each other, were both female and in their 40s, both living on Flower and Dean Street (a fair distance from where both women were killed) and both died from having their left carotid attacked.

[Abby Normal]

Well, both victims, killed within an hour of each other, were both female and in their 40s, both living on Flower and Dean Street (a fair distance from where both women were killed) and both died from having their left carotid attacked.

and both were killed by a man in a peaked cap, who was also seen inbetween the two incidents in church street acting suspiciously, and both were prostitutes. they were undoubtedly killed by the same man.

[etenguy]

I think that could be an argument against. The fact that he found a favourable victim under favourable circumstances relatively soon after the Stride murder decreases the likelihood that it was the same perpetrator, imho.

Possibly, Sam - but there was no shortage of potential victims and we might speculate that he headed towards an area known to be a congregation point for such unfortunates to ensure he could identify his next victim.

[S.Brett]

It seems that there was more than one "Double Event" (Stride/ Eddowes) at that time.

Emma Smith/ Malvina Haynes (Leman Street)
Emily Walton (Hanbury Street)/ Annie Chapman

(if the Walton-story is true...)

and a man "accused of cruelly illusing two poor unfortunates in a common lodging-house in City-road one night last week" (between the murders of Polly Nichols & Annie Chapman), who also was seen "pacing up and down Baker's-row with the murdered woman about two hours before the murder took place" (Nichols).

The victims Smith, Haynes, Walton and the two poor unfortunates were left alive by their attacker(s). It is possible that, in the cases of Haynes, Walton and maybe Stride, "screams" did scare the attacker(s) off.

To be honest, I understand why Sam says "argument against". It´s depending on the point of view, so some people say "against", some people say "for". I think there is nothing wrong with it. Of course, Jon and Abby´s posts sound logical.

Stride´s screams, "not very loud":

About twenty years ago I witnessed a similar incident like the Berner Street- attack. The woman screamed loud, a dangerous situation, people, in another street, heard the screams and rushed to help.

On the other hand:

When I was going out (that was very often) it often happened that women were herassed by drunken men. In the most cases the women knew the men, these men were "friends" or men they knew well by sight. Although they knew that nothing would happen to them there were moments they fell to the ground and screamed but not very loud. This happened inside and outside of certain venues.

If I´m correct one could hear the people singing in the Club, perhaps the the side door was open for a short moment, a window, too, maybe the screams were louder than Schwartz did realize. A noisy surrounding that affected Stride´s behavior? I don´t know.

It could be that the attacks on Smith, Haynes, two poor unfortunates, Walton and Stride were "clumsy". No inention to kill and mutilate them unlike the cases of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly, just "cruelly ill-using". To the motto: "If I can´t kill them, here & now, I will beat them up". A kind of "foreplay" for the Ripper. In Berner Street, something went wrong, a snide remark, a wrong word, a movement on the wrong direction and Stride was lost. That´s why I think the Ripper went back to the Dutfields Yard.

[Mortis]

I find it highly unlikely that a murder with a similar MO as the Ripper happened 10-20 minutes away from a Ripper murder and murder of Eddowes being the first and only time the Ripper would strike into the City of London itself rather than Whitechapel. I find that type of coincidence possible but extremely miniscule. Even in Whitechapel at the time murder was very rare.

[Sam Flynn]

and both were killed by a man in a peaked cap

Given the "sameness" of people's appearance back then, it would be more useful if the man/men WEREN'T wearing a peaked cap.

who was also seen inbetween the two incidents in church street acting suspiciously

I'm don't recall that nugget, Abby. What's the source?

and both were prostitutes

Assuming they were actively prostituting that night (and I have doubts, even in Stride's case) it's perhaps not too significant, given that (a) there were large numbers of prostitutes in the East End slums; and (b) they were - and still are - comparatively easy targets for any killer or killers. Both these factors would work in favour of a single JTR or two independent perpetrators.

they were undoubtedly killed by the same man.

There are a number of reasons as far as I can see.

[John Wheat]

I find it highly unlikely that a murder with a similar MO as the Ripper happened 10-20 minutes away from a Ripper murder and murder of Eddowes being the first and only time the Ripper would strike into the City of London itself rather than Whitechapel. I find that type of coincidence possible but extremely miniscule. Even in Whitechapel at the time murder was very rare.

Which is one of the reasons why Bury is the strongest suspect there is.

[S.Brett]

It is also remarkable that, after the murder in Mitre Square, the killer did not go straight home- so it seems to me anyway- (see Goulston Street). The reason may have been that he was living in the Berner Street area and could not go back there, fearing the police (Stride crime scene) could stop him (possible identification/ questioning & searching by policemen). The hiding in the streets could imply that he could not go back from where he came. But why didn´t? So I think it is possible that he also killed Stride, not far from his own doorstep because something went wrong that night.

The Star, 1 October 1888:

"From two different sources we have the story that a man when passing through Church-lane at about half-past one, saw a man sitting on a door-step and wiping his hands. As every one is on the look out for the murderer the man looked at the stranger with a certain amount of suspicion, whereupon he tried to conceal his face. He is described as a man who wore a short jacket and a sailor's hat".

Speculation of course but this could be the route the killer was taking, Berner Street- Commercial Road- Church Lane- High Street- Duke Street- Mitre Square (probably Church Lane opposite the entrance of Osborn Street), after the Stride murder. After the Eddowes murder it would have been impossible for him to take the same route so he was hiding in the area north of the High Street (Goulston Street, Wentworth Street, Old Montague Street etc.) before he could take a deep breath.

Apropos "sources":

The Star, 2 October 1888:

"In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts. "

I think it is possible that "one man on the description thus obtained" was "Pipeman" & that the "reason to doubt the truth of the story" based on Pipeman´s statement that he thought Schwartz had been the attacker (see post 20). "And a second on that furnished from another source" was a man who was seen by another witness (Brown/ Marshall) near the Berner Street- crime scene.