Favoured Suspect...

[John Wheat]

I find it unfortunate that you feel that way. I do not make personal attacks, I always try to be careful in what I say. You obviously take exception to my posts. That is up to you. I think you might be referring to the Madeleine McCann thread where I challenged your view it was the parents that did it.

Bury did not show any of the characteristics of the Ripper. Mutilation was poorly executed and superficial and you are being disingenuous in regards that by attempting to make it sound as though it was similar to the Ripper when it wasn't.

Strangulation followed by post mortem mutilation nothing like the Ripper at all.

[Sunny Delight]

Strangulation followed by post mortem mutilation nothing like the Ripper at all.

Bury had ample time to complete whatever mutilations he wanted to on his wife. We saw with Mary Kelly what the Ripper was capable of when not constricted by time considerations or threat of capture. Bury's attempt at mutilation was superficial and poorly executed. He didn't cut the throat. He is a poor suspect cleared by Police at the time.

[John Wheat]

Bury had ample time to complete whatever mutilations he wanted to on his wife. We saw with Mary Kelly what the Ripper was capable of when not constricted by time considerations or threat of capture. Bury's attempt at mutilation was superficial and poorly executed. He didn't cut the throat. He is a poor suspect cleared by Police at the time.

Bury is a poor suspect compared to who? Why would Bury mutilate his wife to the same extent to Mary Kelly? He would be hung as the Ripper if he had done. The Police at the time didn't really know who they were dealing with. They had little idea what a serial killer was so them clearing Bury means very little.

[Sunny Delight]

Bury is a poor suspect compared to who? Why would Bury mutilate his wife to the same extent to Mary Kelly? He would be hung as the Ripper if he had done. The Police at the time didn't really know who they were dealing with. They had little idea what a serial killer was so them clearing Bury means very little.

Compared to no one. I don't tend to compare suspects to others although if you pushed me Bury is one of the better ones. Taken on his own merits though he is a very poor suspect.

No it does not mean little. We don't know why they cleared him. Perhaps there was documentation showing he was elsewhere. Maybe there was a cast iron alibi. We don't know. But they cleared him. You can dismiss that based on what you feel was the Police ignorance of what they were dealing with. That is somewhat judgemental of a Police investigation that did everything they could and followed leads wherever they arose.

If Bury was the Ripper he mutilated for sexual gratification. His attacks escalated and he showed how far he was prepared to go to quench his desires with Mary Kelly when left alone with no or little fear of a Police patrol happening upon him.

[Abby Normal]

Bury is a poor suspect compared to who? Why would Bury mutilate his wife to the same extent to Mary Kelly? He would be hung as the Ripper if he had done. The Police at the time didn't really know who they were dealing with. They had little idea what a serial killer was so them clearing Bury means very little.

exactly John. and i always find it rather silly when people try and use what they think a serial killer would or would not do as if its the equivalent of evidence or actually means anything relevant lol. And to deny he post mortem mutilated his wife is just plain wrong and shows how little some people actually know about bury and the case.

and not sure if you saw my previous post but the often repeated claim he was cleared is ridiculous. a couple members of the police thought he wasnt the ripper. thats it. and many of them had different suspects or said they didnt know who did it. and unless someone had a rock solid alibi like ostrog and others who were in jail or out of country during the murders theres no way you can really clear anyone anyway. especially like you say in an era when the police were very inexperienced with serial killers and when they didnt have dna, cell phone or video evidence. cleared my arse lol.

[Lewis C]

I wonder about Bury whether his conviction and death sentence made the police less motivated to take a close look at him. Whether the Ripper or not, he wasn't going to kill anyone else, so the public safety didn't demand that they go the last mile in investigating him, especially when the initial take of a couple of policemen was that he probably wasn't the Ripper.

[Abby Normal]

I wonder about Bury whether his conviction and death sentence made the police less motivated to take a close look at him. Whether the Ripper or not, he wasn't going to kill anyone else, so the public safety didn't demand that they go the last mile in investigating him, especially when the initial take of a couple of policemen was that he probably wasn't the Ripper.

probably and also because it was up in dundee scotland. and the police up there had jurisdiction

[John Wheat]

Compared to no one. I don't tend to compare suspects to others although if you pushed me Bury is one of the better ones. Taken on his own merits though he is a very poor suspect.

No it does not mean little. We don't know why they cleared him. Perhaps there was documentation showing he was elsewhere. Maybe there was a cast iron alibi. We don't know. But they cleared him. You can dismiss that based on what you feel was the Police ignorance of what they were dealing with. That is somewhat judgemental of a Police investigation that did everything they could and followed leads wherever they arose.

If Bury was the Ripper he mutilated for sexual gratification. His attacks escalated and he showed how far he was prepared to go to quench his desires with Mary Kelly when left alone with no or little fear of a Police patrol happening upon him.

Okay so Bury is a poor suspect compared to no one right? Not logical at all. Your wrong about the Police investigation it means very little. You do also realise the Police didn't solve the case? Right so now you are supposing that Bury the poor suspect was the Ripper. Okay again not logical. You do also realise that if Bury did mutilate his wife in the same way as Mary Kelly he would have been hung as the Ripper. Ellen was his wife not a prostitute that couldn't be traced back to him. In my opinion anyone who doesn't see Bury as one of the top suspects doesn't know what they are talking about.

[Sunny Delight]

Okay so Bury is a poor suspect compared to no one right? Not logical at all. Your wrong about the Police investigation it means very little. You do also realise the Police didn't solve the case? Right so now you are supposing that Bury the poor suspect was the Ripper. Okay again not logical. You do also realise that if Bury did mutilate his wife in the same way as Mary Kelly he would have been hung as the Ripper. Ellen was his wife not a prostitute that couldn't be traced back to him. In my opinion anyone who doesn't see Bury as one of the top suspects doesn't know what they are talking about.

Of course it is logical. You have to take a suspect on their own merits. Within the suspects we have one would say Bury is one of the better ones. That says more about the quality of suspects than anything else. In the overall spectrum it is clear that Bury is a poor suspect.

I find it rather egotistical to declare that you know better than those there at the time. That isn't to say they couldn't have been wrong. They were human after all. However dismissing the Police dismissal of Bury on the basis that they didn't know what they were dealing with is not reasonable. We don't know why they cleared Bury. But they did.

I fail to see how a man like the Ripper would kill his wife and then, with all the time in the world, not indulge his fantasies. Fantasies clearly shown in his attacks. Your theory on him not doing so as he would then be seen as the Ripper is unconvincing. Here we are 135 years later and you see the mutilation of his wife as indicative of the Ripper. So why did he attempt any type of mutilation if attempting to cover who he really was? That doesn't make much sense.

I would add that Alice McKenzie was likely a Ripper victim, meaning Bury wasnt him as he was dead and buried by then.

[GBinOz]

According to Bury he awoke after a drunken binge to find his wife had hung herself from a door knob. Not at all ripper-like. No signature throat cut. Does he go to the police claiming that she suicided? No. He makes a cut in her abdomen which, when he proceeded to stuff her body in a packing case, resulted in some of her intestines protruding. No disembowelment by him. Still not ripper-like considering the escalation in violence up to Kelly. He and his friends then spent several days playing cards on said packing case. He then reports to police that his wife had committed suicide days before, and that he had cut her abdomen so that he WOULDN'T be suspected of being the ripper. Whaaat?? Why didn't he just dispose of the crate containing the body and disappear? Wouldn't the ripper have known what to do after having murdered five plus victims with increasing violence?

JtR murdered multiple victims with a stealth that enabled him to be unseen, and unheard, and unknown after more than 100 years. Bury was nothing more than a drunken idiot that longed to see his memory preserved in history.

[GBinOz]

The original jury in Bury's case rendered a verdict of guilty with a recommendation for mercy. This was based on the conflicting medical testimony. The prosecution maintained that the angle of the ligatures on Ellen's neck indicated a garrotting, while the defence insisted that they indicated a hanging from a low suspension point such as a door knob. The re-enacted trial had the jury rendering a not guilty verdict based on the same uncertainties.

The final outcome had Bury admitting to his wife's murder, but denying being the ripper. Had he immediately reported the alleged suicide he may very well have escaped the rope. But he likely wrote self incriminating chalk messages, as opposed to the Goulston St conundrum, and slashed his wife's abdomen shortly after her death. These actions could not aid him in his claim of innocence due to his wife having committed suicide. It is more indicative of his desire to indulge his fantasy to be recorded in history as JtR.

[FISHY1118]

I never did like bury as a suspect.

[GBinOz]

I never did like bury as a suspect.

Hi Fishy,

Would you care to elaborate on your reasons for your opinion?

In a final analyse, Bury confessed to killing his wife, so he then could not avoid his appointment with the hangman. So why the would he deny being the ripper? IMO, because admitting to being the ripper may have involved interrogation by the police demanding details of the ripper murders which Bury would have been unable to provide. This would debunk his claim, which may have been why the police cleared him of being the ripper. By denying being the ripper, but providing subtle hints such as the graffiti and the abdominal slash, he could perpetuate his illusion without having to substantiate the fantasy.

Cheers, George,

[FISHY1118]

Hi Fishy,

Would you care to elaborate on your reasons for your opinion?

In a final analyse, Bury confessed to killing his wife, so he then could not avoid his appointment with the hangman. So why the would he deny being the ripper? IMO, because admitting to being the ripper may have involved interrogation by the police demanding details of the ripper murders which Bury would have been unable to provide. This would debunk his claim, which may have been why the police cleared him of being the ripper. By denying being the ripper, but providing subtle hints such as the graffiti and the abdominal slash, he could perpetuate his illusion without having to substantiate the fantasy.

Cheers, George,

Hi George,

I won't go into too much detail as a lot has already been said about bury as a suspect. For me tho, i don't see the murderer of Mary kelly and way in which he carried it out, being the same man that killed Mrs bury.

Hanging and a few cuts to the abdomen after what Mary kelly ended up as?

Not sitting well with me .

[John Wheat]

Of course it is logical. You have to take a suspect on their own merits. Within the suspects we have one would say Bury is one of the better ones. That says more about the quality of suspects than anything else. In the overall spectrum it is clear that Bury is a poor suspect.

I find it rather egotistical to declare that you know better than those there at the time. That isn't to say they couldn't have been wrong. They were human after all. However dismissing the Police dismissal of Bury on the basis that they didn't know what they were dealing with is not reasonable. We don't know why they cleared Bury. But they did.

I fail to see how a man like the Ripper would kill his wife and then, with all the time in the world, not indulge his fantasies. Fantasies clearly shown in his attacks. Your theory on him not doing so as he would then be seen as the Ripper is unconvincing. Here we are 135 years later and you see the mutilation of his wife as indicative of the Ripper. So why did he attempt any type of mutilation if attempting to cover who he really was? That doesn't make much sense.

I would add that Alice McKenzie was likely a Ripper victim, meaning Bury wasnt him as he was dead and buried by then.

But the Police didn't know what they were doing? Bury is not a poor suspect. Bury would clearly have been hung as the Ripper if he'd gone to town on Ellen Bury. By your logic Alice Mckenzie would have been mutilated like Mary Kelly but wasn't. Besides the time gap needs explaining.