Favoured Suspect...

[The Rookie Detective]

Firstly aren't you contradicting yourself? And as you don't know who the Ripper was how do you know it wasn't Bury?

I am suggesting a balance.

I agree that Bury is a viable and valid suspect for being the man who called himself "Jack the Ripper."

He would fit into a top 10 fairly comfortably IMO

My point however, is that the man who called himself."Jack the Ripper" and gave birth to the term through a letter, may not be the same man who murdered the victims.

When we use the term "Jack the Ripper" we are in effect believing that the Dear Boss letter is authentic, as this was the first written reference to the term.

In other words...If the Dear Boss letter wasn't written by the real killer, then Jack the Ripper is a false label that is attributed to the actual Whitechapel murderer, who would have been a different man entirely.

I am suggesting that Bury may have indeed been "Jack the Ripper" because his handwriting is remarkablely close to the Dear Boss letter.

However, this doesn't make Bury the Whitechapel murderer; which should be the term used for the man who committed the murders.

The term "Jack the Ripper" was a label that was then applied to the murderer; albeit incorrectly IF the Dear Boss letter was no more than the work of a fantasist.


It is sometimes hard to distinguish between trying to chase the man, rather than chasing the myth.


Interestingly, Bury makes reference to "Jack the Ripper"...as does Maybrick (if the watch is authentic)

but it's not the men who claim to be "Jack" that necessarily have the most to say about the murders.

The real killer wouldn't need to directly reference being "Jack"

If Bury would have said "Whitechapel killer" instead of "Jack the Ripper" then his candidacy for being the real killer would be amplified considerably.

This is based on the fact that there's no evidence connecting the term "Jack the Ripper" with any of the murders, because the real killer didn't use the term to label himself; he wouldn't need to.


Unless of course the killer loved the label so much that he chose to steal if from the author of Dear Boss; in which case the waters are then muddied.

Take a room full of egotistical soccer players playing for "Ripper FC" and ask them "Who's the best player in the room?"

Now while the likes of the players Bury and Maybrick may claim to be the man; or in the case of Bury, that he's not, just to get a reaction...

...The actual best player in the room doesn't need to respond to the question of who's the best player, and he doesn't need a label to validate any insecurities he may have.

He simply is the best player, and rather than make noise, he works in the shadows and goes about his business quietly without the need to follow anyone else.

[John Wheat]

Bury is indeed an excellent Ripper suspect.

He just wasn't the man who murdered all of those innocent women.

Firstly aren't you contradicting yourself? And as you don't know who the Ripper was how do you know it wasn't Bury?

[Sunny Delight]

In my opinion there are a lot of people on this thread who both don't know what they are talking about and don't understand logic. It's clear to me that Bury is far and away the top Ripper suspect by some distance. I obviously believe Bury was the Ripper but those that make statements such as Bury is a poor suspect are wide of the mark.

That's an interesting take. Anyone who disagrees with you hasn't a clue what they are talking about and are illogical. You don't seem to be able to tell the difference between being a good suspect insofar as comparing to other suspects. However, I am still waiting on the answer to my question previously posed- what exactly do we have on Bury that makes him a strong suspect when actually taken on its own merits?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I have Deeming as a person of interest, but had the same reservations regarding the reports of his being in South Africa or in Jail. However there is modern research by Napper that casts some doubt upon these assumptions. I also look at the report of the seamstress that identified a photograph of Deeming in a newspaper as being a man named Lawson, a known alias of Deeming. Her story places Deeming in Whitechapel at the time of the Eddowes murder.

Off-topic: Have you watched the movie "The Pale Blue Eye" dealing with your namesake (EAP)? It's one of those movies where you can't miss a single minute without losing the plot, but the twists and turns make it worthwhile. Highly recommended.

Cheers, George

Thanks george
that report is way too tenuous for me RE deeming being in WC at the time. Hopefully more turns up.

and yes I have seen the movie it is excellent. Have you seen the Raven? Excellent time piece thriller about a serial killer in Baltimore while Poe was there murdering people the same way as they die in his stories . One of my favorites.

[The Rookie Detective]

So we have a suspect with the same SIG as the Ripper. That fits the FBI profile. Has made chalk messages saying he's the Ripper. Admitted to his hangman as being the Ripper. That's an awful lot of coincidences then if as according to you he's not the Ripper.

There is no evidence he told the hangman anything.

In his book, James Berry mentions at least 3 well known high profile individuals who he personally hanged; even Lipski in 1887, and yet makes absolutely zero mention of Bury whatsoever.

But for the sake of balance, Bury's handwriting is very similar to some of the alleged Ripper correspondences.

Check out Bern Irca's exceptional research on this area over on Forums.

It left me with the opinion that Bury was first and foremost, a fantasist and I feel he may have indeed written some of the letters associated with the Ripper.

That's Bury's strongest argument for having been the Ripper; his handwriting and syntax used.

However, there's also an argument to say that the only authentic Ripper letter was "From Hell"

If thats the case and Bury was the man who wrote Dear Boss etc... then he may have been the man who claimed to have been "Jack the Ripper."

But was the real killer ever connected with the name Jack the Ripper?

"Jack the Ripper" is a term invented by a person or persons who sought press exposure; whereas the man who wrote "From Hell" and likely the authentic killer, may have never considered himself as "Jack the Ripper"

And there's the rub...

When Bury states he was worried about being thought of as "Jack the Ripper"....he made a mistake..and exposed himself as nothing more than a fantasist.


If he was the real perpetrator of the Whitechapel murders, he had no need to mention the term "Jack the Ripper" at all.

So we have a scenario whereby Bury may have written the likes of "Dear Boss" and thereby considered himself as "Jack the Ripper."

But that still doesn't make him the real killer.

Ultimately, "Jack the Ripper" and the real killer, are likely to have been different men.

Bury may have been Jack

But he is unlikely to have been the man who committed the murders.

So, technically Bury IS one of the primary suspects as being "Jack the Ripper."

But the Whitechapel murderer has no definite link or connection to the invented term "Jack the Ripper" which only began through letters that were born from a place of fantasy rather than reality.

At no point can we link Jack the Ripper to the man who murdered all of those innocent women, because Jack was an invented term in the first place; a press and publicity construct in order to give the murders a label and some kind of contextual understanding for what was going on at the time.

Did the real killer ever consider himself as "Jack the Ripper?"

Unlikely.

[GBinOz]

Because he knew he was going to be hanged.

He could either be hanged and risk being forgotten in history, or be hanged, but not before leaving behind a nugget of doubt and an implication that he could have been the Ripper.

By delberately cutting his wife's abdomen post mortem, Bury is making a conscious effort to try and seek recognition that he could indeed be the Ripper.

Bury uses reverse psychology by saying he doesn't want anyone to think he's the Ripper, but he is in truth seeking the opposite.
It's like if someone tells you not to think of a pink Elephant trying to ice-skate.

It's clear that Bury was trying to capitalise on the Ripper murders, by raising the suggestion he may be the killer.

This was perhaps a delaying.tactic in a bid to extend his life, but his end game seems to have been a bid to secure some kind of historical notoriety by leaving behind a question mark over his potential participation in the Ripper murders.

Interestingly, there was always doubt over whether he actually even murdered Ellen and that she may have taken her own life in a desperate bid to escape Bury.

Somewhat ironically, whether he killed his wife of not is not the most relevant aspect of the case, it's his mention of not wanting to be seen as the Ripper which IMO is the most significant detail of his inevitable demise.

It's also been well documented that when the death penalty was handed down to Bury, that there was a genuine feeling of surprise. It was stated that Bury himself appeared to react in a way that indicated he too was surprised by the decision.

But I believe his reaction was more a result of the realisation that the police didn't think he was the Ripper and therefore had no further interest in him.

He went to his death as just another number among the condemned.

Of course, Bury may indeed have deliberately inflicted a post mortem wound on his deceased wife precisely for the reason that he was in fact the real Ripper.

But it would appear that his attempt at reverse psychology backfired; in the short term at least, and that despite the post mortem cutting of his wife and a mention of not wanting to be seen as the Ripper, nobody thought he was the Ripper anyway.

However, in the long term Bury did succeed in his bid to gain some kind of notoriety, because today we still talk about him as being one of the strongest Ripper suspects.

And so while it could be said that his attempts to be remembered did nothing at the time, he has managed to gain some long term curiosity from those investigating the Ripper case today.

Was he the Ripper?

I personally think not.


However, as a caveat to that, Bury's handwriting closely matches some of the Ripper correspondences.


On that basis, I think there's a strong and valid argument to suggest that Bury was at the very least a Ripper fantasist.

But so was Bachert IMO


There's one thing that is certain about Bury; he should always be considered a viable Ripper suspect.

And while he may not be in the same league as the likes of Deeming and Chapman who each murdered multiple women, Bury still retains an enigmatic quality that should mean he is never written off completely.

I don't think he was the Ripper, but I do consider him a top 10 suspect.

Excellent post RD. Logical, and addressing both sides of the argument.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

hi george
yes deeming intrigued me at one point. however, you cant even place him in the area at the time of the ripper killings and to me thats a biggee. and theres a very good likelihood that he was in prison or probably out of country. if he can be shown to be in wc or even london during the time then he would be high on my list, until then hes a long shot.

Hi Abby,

I have Deeming as a person of interest, but had the same reservations regarding the reports of his being in South Africa or in Jail. However there is modern research by Napper that casts some doubt upon these assumptions. I also look at the report of the seamstress that identified a photograph of Deeming in a newspaper as being a man named Lawson, a known alias of Deeming. Her story places Deeming in Whitechapel at the time of the Eddowes murder.

Off-topic: Have you watched the movie "The Pale Blue Eye" dealing with your namesake (EAP)? It's one of those movies where you can't miss a single minute without losing the plot, but the twists and turns make it worthwhile. Highly recommended.

Cheers, George

[The Rookie Detective]

In my opinion there are a lot of people on this thread who both don't know what they are talking about and don't understand logic. It's clear to me that Bury is far and away the top Ripper suspect by some distance. I obviously believe Bury was the Ripper but those that make statements such as Bury is a poor suspect are wide of the mark.

Bury is indeed an excellent Ripper suspect.

He just wasn't the man who murdered all of those innocent women.

[Abby Normal]

Certainly since John hasn't answered, of course you may, Abby.


Interesting, so thanks for pointing me to him. I will read up on him.


Obviously, none of what you suggest here is unreasonable and, therefore, possible. But, in the end, it’s speculation just the same – just like my suggestion/view.


Having just now found & read the post-mortem report on Ellen Bury, I have come closer to your stance, Abby, although questions/doubts remain, as far as I’m concerned.

Why were those chalked message there? Were they written by himself to give the impression, once he’d killed his wife, that he was the Ripper? This would, of course, mean premeditation, but the actual murder fits more with a spur of the moment kind of thing, as you suggest. Or did he write them to inflict fear upon his wife? Or were they written by his wife as a sort of distress signal? If so, why didn’t he wipe them off if he didn’t want to be suspected of being Jack the Ripper? The fact that he left them where they were seems to suggest that he wanted to be suspected of being the Ripper, but, even though he could expect the game would be up after going to the police himself, he didn’t confess to being the Ripper. And also, although I think you wont agree with me on this one, why not go ‘all the way’ on a female body while you have one at your disposal and for several days, too? I mean, if he was the Ripper, we know what he was capable of and willing to, so why stop where he did with Ellen?

Of course, there are all kinds of alternative answers to these questions – answers pro and con Bury being the Ripper, but I’m still some way away from the fence, although I’m at least looking at it now.



I hope you’re not just looking at me when you speak of speculation, because we’re all condemned to speculation - you, me and all the rest of us. Pro or con whatever view. But, as I said before, having read the post-mortem on Ellen Bury, I’m a bit closer than I was before to seeing how Bury might have been the Ripper. I’ll give you that.

Cheers,
Frank

hi frank
re the chalked messages..to me i dont place much emphasis on them, but i read somewhere once there were questions about who wrote them and it came up that they were written by the locals. the messages predate ellens murder. did the locals know something about bury? was there gossip he was the ripper? why?

as for why he didnt go further with the mutilation on ellen ? as i said before..who knows? its his wifes not a prostitute, maybe psychologically that had something to do with it. or maybe he started to, and passed out or something and when he woke up realized the pickle he was in and the thrill of further mutilations were gone.

re speculation... no not talking about you at all. nor am i talking about when someone is responding to anothers direct question anout an unknown, i m talking about all the wild speculation re ruling bury out because of some of his actions were "unripperlike." it is pointless for someone to speculate on what they think a serial killer would or wouldnt do and even rule someone out based on that meaningless speculation.who really knows why they do what they do, theyre weird and unpredictable. I have given many examples of other serial killers acting very unlike their past behavior. its pointless. stick with the evidence. like sig, victimology, alibi, proximity, police suspician etc. bury ticks all of these boxes.

and i would be remiss if i didnt compliment you for your open mind and rational responses, much appreciated.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Lewis C,

Aren't you overlooking Deeming?

With both Bury and Deeming we see the certain murder of family members along with the suspicion of the serial killing of strangers. Bury used strangulation. Deeming used strangulation and throat cutting, the latter being more similar to the ripper technique. Both attempted to hid the body(ies) of family members to escape the consequences. Bury subsequently revealed the body, whereas Deeming never did - neither did JtR. Both fitted the FBI profile. Both were disposing of people who had out served their purpose. Bury chose to advertise with the chalk graffiti, Deeming did not, and JtR's possible chalk graffiti was obscure at best, and certainly not self implicating.

The divergent aspect being relied upon for Bury is the abdominal attack. While I can see a killer using similar techniques with family and strangers to achieve the actual deaths, I am not persuaded that the killer would have felt the urge to perpetrate the eviscerations on family members that drove him to visit such injuries on the strangers.

I see the abdominal attack by Bury as inconsistent with the differentiation between family and stranger, but perfectly consistent with his fantasy of attempting to be perceived as a person of notoriety rather than an insignificant drunken parasite.

Cheers, George

hi george
yes deeming intrigued me at one point. however, you cant even place him in the area at the time of the ripper killings and to me thats a biggee. and theres a very good likelihood that he was in prison or probably out of country. if he can be shown to be in wc or even london during the time then he would be high on my list, until then hes a long shot.

[FrankO]

i know that question was directed at John but if I may.

Certainly since John hasn't answered, of course you may, Abby.

Serial killer Charlie Brandt last acts were he killed his wife in his own house and then hung himself .

Interesting, so thanks for pointing me to him. I will read up on him.

Who knows why these sickos do what they do when! They’re effed up . Bury was probably unraveling like a lot of serial killers do, killed his wife in a fit. If he was the ripper he gashed her midsection …well because that’s what the ripper did. The boy couldn’t help it so to say . Why he didn’t mutilate her more? Who knows perhaps he passed out or whatever.

Obviously, none of what you suggest here is unreasonable and, therefore, possible. But, in the end, it’s speculation just the same – just like my suggestion/view.

Bottom line is he showed the same SIG as the ripper.

Having just now found & read the post-mortem report on Ellen Bury, I have come closer to your stance, Abby, although questions/doubts remain, as far as I’m concerned.

Why were those chalked message there? Were they written by himself to give the impression, once he’d killed his wife, that he was the Ripper? This would, of course, mean premeditation, but the actual murder fits more with a spur of the moment kind of thing, as you suggest. Or did he write them to inflict fear upon his wife? Or were they written by his wife as a sort of distress signal? If so, why didn’t he wipe them off if he didn’t want to be suspected of being Jack the Ripper? The fact that he left them where they were seems to suggest that he wanted to be suspected of being the Ripper, but, even though he could expect the game would be up after going to the police himself, he didn’t confess to being the Ripper. And also, although I think you wont agree with me on this one, why not go ‘all the way’ on a female body while you have one at your disposal and for several days, too? I mean, if he was the Ripper, we know what he was capable of and willing to, so why stop where he did with Ellen?

Of course, there are all kinds of alternative answers to these questions – answers pro and con Bury being the Ripper, but I’m still some way away from the fence, although I’m at least looking at it now.

No other suspects got that going for them and it is evidence not speculation which this thread is rife with .

I hope you’re not just looking at me when you speak of speculation, because we’re all condemned to speculation - you, me and all the rest of us. Pro or con whatever view. But, as I said before, having read the post-mortem on Ellen Bury, I’m a bit closer than I was before to seeing how Bury might have been the Ripper. I’ll give you that.

Cheers,
Frank

[John Wheat]

In my opinion there are a lot of people on this thread who both don't know what they are talking about and don't understand logic. It's clear to me that Bury is far and away the top Ripper suspect by some distance. I obviously believe Bury was the Ripper but those that make statements such as Bury is a poor suspect are wide of the mark.

[John Wheat]

He may well fit some of it. But a profile is just that- a profile. It gives us an idea of what we might be looking for. I would suggest the FBI weren't too far out. However the profile could probably apply to thousands of other men in the district as well. I don't see much evidence against Bury being offered up bar post mortem mutilation. Mutilation which bears little resemblance to how the Ripper committed his crimes.

So we have a suspect with the same SIG as the Ripper. That fits the FBI profile. Has made chalk messages saying he's the Ripper. Admitted to his hangman as being the Ripper. That's an awful lot of coincidences then if as according to you he's not the Ripper.

[Sunny Delight]

But Bury fits the FBI profile extremely well.

He may well fit some of it. But a profile is just that- a profile. It gives us an idea of what we might be looking for. I would suggest the FBI weren't too far out. However the profile could probably apply to thousands of other men in the district as well. I don't see much evidence against Bury being offered up bar post mortem mutilation. Mutilation which bears little resemblance to how the Ripper committed his crimes.

[The Rookie Detective]

This is pure opinion with nothing to back it up whatsoever.

Respectfully, you are of course entitled to your own opinion.

The irony is not lost here.