Milking it

[Wickerman]

Thomas Bowyer discovered Mary around 10:45, and we have all seen the damage done to Mary which indicates the killer spent more time with Mary than any other of the alleged Ripper kills. He cut flesh from bone, he emptied her midsection, and he would have been bloodied. Does Marys killer walk out of that room onto a bustling street after butchering her, with what must have been substantial blood on his clothing....or did he leave in darkness when no-one was around to see him leave?

Well, seeing as we are speculating here - the night was cold & wet, so the killer maybe wore an overcoat.
Can we assume he removed it when he was in the room entertained by Kelly?

So, after being all bloodied from the mutilations, he put the overcoat back on, and slipped out unnoticed.
Why does it matter whether it was day or night?
He was covered up.

Workers at slaughter houses & butchers walk about in bloodstained clothes, its not so unusual.

[Michael W Richards]

Thomas Bowyer discovered Mary around 10:45, and we have all seen the damage done to Mary which indicates the killer spent more time with Mary than any other of the alleged Ripper kills. He cut flesh from bone, he emptied her midsection, and he would have been bloodied. Does Marys killer walk out of that room onto a bustling street after butchering her, with what must have been substantial blood on his clothing....or did he leave in darkness when no-one was around to see him leave?

The answer is no, he didnt leave when people could see him leave, and Mary didnt leave her room after she had already been taken apart.

These kinds of issues dont require reviewing witness evidence that suggested Mary was seen out of her room after 8am on Friday morning, its fairly obvious she was already dead then. Exactly what time she was killed, and exactly what time the killer leaves isnt obvious, but needless to say he didnt leave in daylight.

[Wickerman]

Yes, thanks to Belloc, I recall it now.

This account has Lewis claiming to have known Kelly for five years, yet Kelly only moved to London in 1884, to the West End. Relocating to the East End about 1885-6, but to Breezer's Hill, not Whitechapel. At least according to her story & modern research.

Notice there's no mention of Lewis seeing Kelly go for milk, that part is thought to be significant, yet the article skips over it altogether. Only claiming they were disturbed from playing Pitch & Toss by the appearance of a constable on his beat.

The 'going for milk' story was possibly a confused account by the press reporter or editor. The journalist confused Maxwell for Kelly, not Lewis.

[The Rookie Detective]

The Gloucestershire Echo, 9th November 1888, page 4



Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper, 11th November 1888, page 7

Thank you Belloc

What takes me several hours to cross-reference, collate and then upload; you seem to be able to do so much more quickly and efficiently than I ever could.

I admire you immensely for that

Regarding the latter Lloyd's article; I tend to get the impression that they were quite quirky and bombastic in their approach and application to reports relating to the Ripper case.
Nonetheless; there is a clear discrepancy in the 2 reports.

It is tempting to immediately dismiss the latter because quite often the initial reports tend to hold more grains of truth and are likely to be less manipulated to fit into a narrative.

At face value though, I believe its important not to cherry pick and so IMO both versions of Lewis's account are valid.

It may be one of the contributing factors as to why Lewis wasn't called up and practically disappears into obscurity.


Fascinating indeed



RD

[Belloc]

You say Lewis "altered his time", I know his statement was first published in the Friday evening press (Echo), but apart from the occasional duplication, I'm not aware there was a second statement from Lewis?
Lewis said he was in the court about 9:00am, but he saw the woman go for milk about an hour earlier.

The Gloucestershire Echo, 9th November 1888, page 4



Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper, 11th November 1888, page 7

[Wickerman]

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about Maxwell and her link to the Milk.


So...we have a witness named Lewis, who claimed to have seen MJK on her way to get some milk (and then subsequently seen her in the pub)

But we have the other witness in Maxwell who also claimed to have seen and spoken to MJK on the same morning; who also happened to be on her way to get some milk, around the same time that Lewis sees MJK. This as you say suggests that Lewis may have seen Maxwell instead of MJK.

Lewis seems to alter his timings by an hour to coincide with Maxwell, in terms of seeing MJK in the pub around 10am.

Hi RD. You say Lewis "altered his time", I know his statement was first published in the Friday evening press (Echo), but apart from the occasional duplication, I'm not aware there was a second statement from Lewis?
Lewis said he was in the court about 9:00am, but he saw the woman go for milk about an hour earlier.

We also have an unidentified and still unknown and unamed man who left the court around 10.30am and was stopped and questioned by a policeman. The man says he is on the way to get some MILK.

Is there a copy of this statement?
Why would a man be stopped before the murder was known?

[The Rookie Detective]

I'm inclined to see Lewis's statement being a confused account by the reporter who mistook 'seeing her go for milk' as referring to Kelly, when he actually meant Maxwell.
We know Maxwell was going for milk at that early hour (8-9), but no cause to think Kelly was.
This may have been the reason Lewis was not called as a witness.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about Maxwell and her link to the Milk.


So...we have a witness named Lewis, who claimed to have seen MJK on her way to get some milk (and then subsequently seen her in the pub)

But we have the other witness in Maxwell who also claimed to have seen and spoken to MJK on the same morning; who also happened to be on her way to get some milk, around the same time that Lewis sees MJK. This as you say suggests that Lewis may have seen Maxwell instead of MJK.

Lewis seems to alter his timings by an hour to coincide with Maxwell, in terms of seeing MJK in the pub around 10am.

And Maxwell seems to fit into Lewis's claim of seeing a woman get milk (despite him claiming it was the victim he saw)

So we have the 2 witnesses who blow apart the idea that MJK was murdered in the early hours because they both claim to have either seen or interacted with MJK AFTER the time she was already supposed to have been dead.

Lewis is never called and seems to vanish into obscurity.

When we combine both of their stories; it would appear that Lewis changes his story to tie in with Maxwell (sighting in the pub) but then Maxwell reciprocates by claiming she got milk around the same time that Lewis said he had seen MJK; effectively destroying the idea that MJK was seen by Lewis at all and he was simply jumping on the pub sighting; leaving Maxwell as the only witness to carry any viability.

This would explain why Maxwell is called and Lewis is lost in the mist.


That's that then...


Or is it?

We also have an unidentified and still unknown and unamed man who left the court around 10.30am and was stopped and questioned by a policeman. The man says he is on the way to get some MILK.

The timing of 10.30am and the police being at the site would suggest that MJK was already dead and her body discovered.

But that appears to not be the case.

MJK was claimed to have been found AFTER 10.30am.

And so we have a man leaving number 3 Millers Court to apparently go and get some milk. He is believed and allowed to go on his way.

We also have an individual in Hanslope who DID live in number 11 Millers Court around the time of the murder. We know this because based on the documentation we have, he is listed aged 40 when living there.

That would all but confirm that he lived in Millers Court at some point in 1888/1889.

We just have no proof that he was living at 11 Millers Court on that exact date.

11 Millers Court overlooks MJK's window; her bed infact.

So we have a man who has threatened to cut his wife's throat, beaten up his own mother and allegedly raped his own daughter... residing in the room opposite MJK's window.

Hanslope states he was a "Porter"


The man who left Millers Court at 10.30am and was stopped by police on his way to get milk...told them he was a "Porter"


My suggestion is that the proven character mindset of the Porter, Hanslope, who almost certainly lived in 11 Millers Court at some time in 1888, the other unidentified Porter man claiming to live at number 3, who left Millers Court to get milk, the uncalled vanishing man in Lewis, who saw MJk on her way to get milk, and the claims of Mawell going to get milk ,are all connected in some way.

There is something going on here that has never been connected before.

We have 3 individuals talking about milk.

2 of them claim to have interacted or seen the victim after she was already dead, and the other is an unknown entity who left the court around 10.30am, despite there being a clash with the actual time that MJK was claimed to have been found.


What is going on here?


The devil is in the detail as they say and the reference to different individuals going to get milk IN CONTEXT with the rest of the events surrounding MJK's murder, may just hold more relevance than has ever been considered before.



RD

[Wickerman]

I'm inclined to see Lewis's statement being a confused account by the reporter who mistook 'seeing her go for milk' as referring to Kelly, when he actually meant Maxwell.
We know Maxwell was going for milk at that early hour (8-9), but no cause to think Kelly was.
This may have been the reason Lewis was not called as a witness.

[caz]

Hi Geddy,

Ernie told one of his female customers, who liked to bathe in the stuff, that "pasteurised" was best.

She replied: "Ernie, I'll be 'appy if it comes up to me chest."

Love,

Caz
X

[Geddy2112]

Do we know if it was green top or blue top?

[Duran duren]

Like AC, i have never went for the later sightings of Mary, doesn't mean I'm right of course. Gonna have to go back now and study all of what you wrote about RD...great post as usual sir...

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi all


Yes, its that time again...


So...


MILK


It was reported that around 10.30am on the morning of the discovery of MJK, that a man was stopped and questioned by police as he left Millers Court.

He claimed to be a Porter residing at number 3 Millers Court (ground floor) and was on his way to get some MILK and knew nothing of the murder; having heard or seen nothing.

He was allowed to go on his way.

This man's name seems to not have been reported in the press and to this day the man's name is unknown.

There is another thread ongoing (thanks to the legendary Debra, the late great Mr Chris Scott, and the fabulous Belloc) regarding a man named Henry Hanslope, who at some point resided at number 11 Millers Court.

Long story short, Hanslope was a destitute man who spent much time in and out of lodging houses and workhouses.
Over time he..
violently assaulted his mother,
threatened to murder his wife by cutting her throatand attempted/succeeded in raping his own teenage daughter.
He was a man who dressed to impress and passed himself off as a Detective, despite being a farmers boy.

Interestingly, Hanslope, like the man stopped by police and questioned and who resided at number 3 Millers Court, also claimed to be a Porter.

We can't be certain when Hanslope resided in Millers Court, but we know he did.

But, Hanslope aside...

Another witness; named Morris/Maurice Lewis claimed to have seen MJK alive and well in the morning of MJK's murder.
Initially he claimed to have seen MJK around 8am...on her way to get some MILK, but then the time changes to around 9am based on his alleged sighting of MJK around 10am in the Public House on Dorset St...the same pub in which Caroline Maxwell claimed to have seen her also.

So, based on Morris Lewis's account; which we only know from various press sources; he was around Mccarthy's Court sometime between 8am (when he saw MJK on her way to get MILK) and 9am when he was playing a game with a group of other men.

He claimed to gave run (along with others) once he heard a lad shout "Copper!", ergo, alerting Lewis and his friends that there was a policeman about.

Who was this policeman?

The issue is Lewis's timing.

He seems to jump an hour.

His initial account is based on seeing MJK at 8am... but then is later changed to tie in with Maxwell's account of seeing MJK in the pub around 10am.


Why is that?

Maxwell lived in Dorset Street
Lewis lived in Dorset Street and places himself in Mccarthy Court...along with a GROUP of others.

Who were this group?


Based on his timing; does it mean he saw MJK at 8am and then again at 9am in the pub?

Or did he see MJK around 9am getting milk and then at 10am in the pub?

Maxwell and Lewis's reports support each other with the 10am scenario.

But that then means that MJK's discovery would be between 10.30am - 11am.

And so how can a man exit from Millers Court and be stopped by police at 10.30am and questioned, when MJK hasn't yet been discovered?

That would mean that we have an unidentified man leaving the court just before MJK is found murdered.

This is based on an approximate time of Bowyer finding her around 10.45am AND Lewis's amended timings based on the press accounts.

And so...we have a man still unidentified, unnamed and unknown Porter who goes for MILK just before MJK's body is found.
We then have a man in Lewis who claims to have seen MJK going for MILK around 8am (potentially 9am based on his 10am account of seeing MJK in the pub at 10am)

And we have Hanslope who states he's also a porter and who also lived (at some point in 1888/1889) in Millers Court.

And so...my question is...

Was the man who was stopped by police around 10.30am and who claimed to have been on his way to get milk, the man who had just left Millers Court after butchering Kelly?

Was this man Hanslope...or Lewis?

Were the men the same person?


Number 11 overlooks the window of the room in which MJK was murdered at no.13.

And so whomever resided in number 11 would have a view into Kelly's room and know that the room could be accessed via the latch through the broken window.

Did the Porter man tell the police he had come from room 3; situated across the court, but actually came from room 11?

If Hanslope was the man living in 11 Millers Court, then we have a man who tried to assault, rape and murder his mother, daughter, and wife respectively, living directly opposite MJK's window.

Note also that Morris Lewis was never called up to give testimony at the inquest. In fact, he fades into obscurity and appears to simply dissappear.

As though he never really existed.

A bit like George Hutchinson


My next question...

If Lewis's account was genuine and he mentions seeing MJK on her way to get milk at 8am/9am...and then another man who lives in the court is stopped on his way to get milk; is that perhaps a clue that the stories have been intertwined and/or that Lewis and the man stopped were the same man; ergo, LEWIS was on his way to get milk and NOT MJK?


There is a lot to unravel here but the link between the Milk and the Porter should not be overlooked.

Now if MJK was dead by the time the man left the court from room 3 to get milk, then one would assume that he was stopped AFTER MJK was found dead.

Otherwise, why stop him in the first place to question him?


When we add Hanslope into the mix, we have a bizarre concoction that includes Lewis, Maxwell and the man who was stopped on his way to get milk.

Was the man who got stopped actually Morris Lewis?


And was Morris Lewis the same man known as Henry Hanslope?

If so, was he the man who butchered Kelly?

And was Hutchinson an alias of Hanslope?


Lots to ponder.



RD