Rating The Suspects.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Buchan - a Marine stores dealer who committed suicide by almost cutting his own head off with a knife on the day of Mary Kelly’s funeral. First named in Criminologist magazine in 1990 by Roger Barber who recently wrote a book. Zero to connect him to the case Abby. I only added him because of the book.

Dr. Williams - a descendant found a letter to another doctor in which Williams apologises for not being able to meet as he would be attending a clinic in Whitechapel. The letter was dated Sept 8th 1888. He claims that Kelly might have become his lover in Wales and that the murders might have occurred because Williams wife couldn’t have children. Dr. Williams had a breakdown after the Kelly murder. He was 48 at the time of the murders and died in 1926.

Craig - a Reporter who got in trouble for plagiarising. A modern day author claims that Craig discovered that his wife was a prostitute who went into hiding under the name of Mary Kelly. The author Dr. Weston-Davies wanted to exhume Kelly’s body bt if I recall correctly he’s now given up on the suspect?

Wentworth Bell-Smith - was favoured by L. Forbes Winslow. Hasn’t been tracked down but he seems to have been the right type. Intriguing but lacking in corroboration.

thanks herlock and john

on my list they would all get zeros lol. these are ridiculous suspects along the lines of may brick, van gogh and royal conspiracy.

[John Wheat]

thanks herlock and john

on my list they would all get zeros lol. these are ridiculous suspects along the lines of may brick, van gogh and royal conspiracy.

I wouldn't go quite that far Abby. Although I've always thought Bellsmith would be a better suspect for some of the Torso Murders than for the C5. However I doubt he was either Jack or involved in any of the Torso murders. Cheers John

[Abby Normal]

I wouldn't go quite that far Abby. Although I've always thought Bellsmith would be a better suspect for some of the Torso Murders than for the C5. However I doubt he was either Jack or involved in any of the Torso murders. Cheers John

youre right. maybrick, van gogh and royal conspiracy suspects are even more ridiculous lol.

[John Wheat]

youre right. maybrick, van gogh and royal conspiracy suspects are even more ridiculous lol.

I have to agree with you Abby Maybrick, Van Gogh and royal conspiracy suspects are fantasy suspects.
Atleast with Wentworth Bellsmith we have someone who was in the area at the time.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ammendment #13


--- (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) (F) (G) (H) ---

13 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kelly, James

11 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Bury, William Henry

10 = 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Grainger, William Grant

09 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cutbush, Thomas Hayne

09 = 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Deeming, Frederick Bailey

09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Hyams, Hyam

09 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Puckridge, Oswald

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Kosminski, Aaron (Aron Mordke Kozminski)

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John "Leather Apron"

08 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Lechmere, George Capel Scudamore

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Barnado, Thomas John

O8 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Thompson, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Chapman, George (Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski)

07 = 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 : Tumblety, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Smith, G. Wentworth Bell

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cohen, David

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kidney, Michael

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Thompson, Francis

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Levy, Jacob

06 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Druitt, Montague John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Barnett, Joseph

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 : Stephenson, Robert Donston (or Roslyn D'Onston)

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Sutton, Henry Gawen

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1- 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Buchan, Edward

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Williams, Dr. John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Craig, Francis Spurzheim

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Stephen, James Kenneth

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Bachert, Albert

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Cross, Charles (Charles Allen Lechmere)

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hardiman, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hutchinson, George

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Mann, Robert

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Maybrick, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Le Grand, Charles

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Maybrick, Michael

03 = 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Sickert, Walter Richard

02 = 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Gull, Sir William Withey


Legend:

(A) Age/physical health

. . . 2 = no issue

. . . 1 = issues possibly creating doubt

. . . 0 = serious issue/ could potentially eliminate

(B) Location/access to murder sites

. . . 2 = no issues

. . . 1 = reasonable travel

. . . 0 = serious doubt

(C) Violence

. . . 4 = killed woman (non-relative) with knife

. . . 3 = killed female relative with knife

. . . 2 = violence with a knife

. . . 1 = violence without a knife

. . . 0 = no known violence

(D) Mental health issues

. . . 2 = serious/violent

. . . 1 = other

. . . 0 = none known

(E) Police interest

. . . 2 = at the time (without exoneration)

. . . 1 = later (within 10 yrs and without exoneration))

. . . 0 = none known or not serious

(F) Hatred/dislike of women/prostitutes

. . . 2 = yes

. . . 1 = link to prostitutes

. . . 0 = none known

(G) Medical/anatomical knowledge (inc. animals)

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known

(H) Alcohol/drug issue

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known


Suspects Added

Michael Maybrick and John Pizer*


* I scored him 2 on violence due to the knife attack on James Willis even though his name was given as Pozer. I scored him 0 on police interest because interest was only brief.


This is an example of a ‘suspect’ that would have scored fairly high if he didn’t have an alibi for the Double Event which imo eliminates any suspect. William Piggott, would have scored (2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 1 = 9) except that he was admitted to the Whitechapel Infirmary, 10th September 1888 (from Commercial Street Police Station) for Delirium Tremens and wasn’t discharged until 9th October which exonerates him of Stride and Eddowes.

….

Ive finished going through Morley’s suspect list and I can’t see any more worth adding (he lists 443 of them btw) but I will add if anyone makes a suggestion.

….

Thoughts requested - I’ve been thinking for a while that I should perhaps change the ‘violence’ criteria to cover only violence against women? I just think it might give a slightly more accurate representation although it will be a pain to go back through them. It was when I had to award Pizer 2 points that I thought that a change might be needed.

[Abby Normal]

Ammendment #13


--- (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) (F) (G) (H) ---

13 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kelly, James

11 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Bury, William Henry

10 = 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Grainger, William Grant

09 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cutbush, Thomas Hayne

09 = 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Deeming, Frederick Bailey

09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Hyams, Hyam

09 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Puckridge, Oswald

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Kosminski, Aaron (Aron Mordke Kozminski)

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John "Leather Apron"

08 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Lechmere, George Capel Scudamore

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Barnado, Thomas John

O8 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Thompson, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Chapman, George (Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski)

07 = 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 : Tumblety, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Smith, G. Wentworth Bell

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cohen, David

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kidney, Michael

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Thompson, Francis

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Levy, Jacob

06 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Druitt, Montague John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Barnett, Joseph

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 : Stephenson, Robert Donston (or Roslyn D'Onston)

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Sutton, Henry Gawen

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1- 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Buchan, Edward

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Williams, Dr. John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Craig, Francis Spurzheim

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Stephen, James Kenneth

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Bachert, Albert

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Cross, Charles (Charles Allen Lechmere)

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hardiman, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hutchinson, George

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Mann, Robert

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Maybrick, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Le Grand, Charles

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Maybrick, Michael

03 = 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Sickert, Walter Richard

02 = 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Gull, Sir William Withey


Legend:

(A) Age/physical health

. . . 2 = no issue

. . . 1 = issues possibly creating doubt

. . . 0 = serious issue/ could potentially eliminate

(B) Location/access to murder sites

. . . 2 = no issues

. . . 1 = reasonable travel

. . . 0 = serious doubt

(C) Violence

. . . 4 = killed woman (non-relative) with knife

. . . 3 = killed female relative with knife

. . . 2 = violence with a knife

. . . 1 = violence without a knife

. . . 0 = no known violence

(D) Mental health issues

. . . 2 = serious/violent

. . . 1 = other

. . . 0 = none known

(E) Police interest

. . . 2 = at the time (without exoneration)

. . . 1 = later (within 10 yrs and without exoneration))

. . . 0 = none known or not serious

(F) Hatred/dislike of women/prostitutes

. . . 2 = yes

. . . 1 = link to prostitutes

. . . 0 = none known

(G) Medical/anatomical knowledge (inc. animals)

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known

(H) Alcohol/drug issue

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known


Suspects Added

Michael Maybrick and John Pizer*


* I scored him 2 on violence due to the knife attack on James Willis even though his name was given as Pozer. I scored him 0 on police interest because interest was only brief.


This is an example of a ‘suspect’ that would have scored fairly high if he didn’t have an alibi for the Double Event which imo eliminates any suspect. William Piggott, would have scored (2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 1 = 9) except that he was admitted to the Whitechapel Infirmary, 10th September 1888 (from Commercial Street Police Station) for Delirium Tremens and wasn’t discharged until 9th October which exonerates him of Stride and Eddowes.

….

Ive finished going through Morley’s suspect list and I can’t see any more worth adding (he lists 443 of them btw) but I will add if anyone makes a suggestion.

….

Thoughts requested - I’ve been thinking for a while that I should perhaps change the ‘violence’ criteria to cover only violence against women? I just think it might give a slightly more accurate representation although it will be a pain to go back through them. It was when I had to award Pizer 2 points that I thought that a change might be needed.

hi herlock
deeming should het a zero for number 2. there is serious doubt

[Lewis C]

could anyone give me a nutshell on who the following suspects are and what they got going for them? it would be much appreciated.

buchan
dr john williams
craig
wentworth bell smith

Abby, in a nutshell, Buchan committed suicide on his birthday, which was also the day of Mary Jane Kelly's funeral. For one thing, this would explain why the murders stopped, if Kelly really was the last Ripper murder. Barber also connects his suicide on his birthday with the Ripper attacking the wombs of his victims, because a birthday is the anniversary of the day a person exits the womb. Also, his father had a navel apparel store or something like that, and Lawende thought that the man he saw dressed like a sailor. If you want some more detail about Buchan, because maybe my summation doesn't do full justice to the theory, about 2 months ago, Richard Jones, on his Youtube channel, posted a video in which he interviewed the chief proponent of the Buchan theory, Roger Barber. I came away from the video with the belief that Buchan isn't one of the 15 best suspects, but also isn't a ridiculous suspect in the manner of Gull or Lewis Carroll. I think Richard Jones' videos about specific suspects are usually worth seeing, even if the suspect isn't the greatest. Here's a link to it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0MHE_v-QWs

[FISHY1118]

I have to agree with you Abby Maybrick, Van Gogh and royal conspiracy suspects are fantasy suspects.
Atleast with Wentworth Bellsmith we have someone who was in the area at the time.

Was not Gull in the area at the time John?

Sure, dismiss him for other reasons that you might favour, but as far as my knowledge of Gull goes, he was in London at the time and could easily have traveled in and around Whitechapel.

[John Wheat]

Was not Gull in the area at the time John?

Sure, dismiss him for other reasons that you might favour, but as far as my knowledge of Gull goes, he was in London at the time and could easily have traveled in and around Whitechapel.

Yes Gull was in the area at the time.

[FISHY1118]

Yes Gull was in the area at the time.

[Abby Normal]

Abby, in a nutshell, Buchan committed suicide on his birthday, which was also the day of Mary Jane Kelly's funeral. For one thing, this would explain why the murders stopped, if Kelly really was the last Ripper murder. Barber also connects his suicide on his birthday with the Ripper attacking the wombs of his victims, because a birthday is the anniversary of the day a person exits the womb. Also, his father had a navel apparel store or something like that, and Lawende thought that the man he saw dressed like a sailor. If you want some more detail about Buchan, because maybe my summation doesn't do full justice to the theory, about 2 months ago, Richard Jones, on his Youtube channel, posted a video in which he interviewed the chief proponent of the Buchan theory, Roger Barber. I came away from the video with the belief that Buchan isn't one of the 15 best suspects, but also isn't a ridiculous suspect in the manner of Gull or Lewis Carroll. I think Richard Jones' videos about specific suspects are usually worth seeing, even if the suspect isn't the greatest. Here's a link to it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0MHE_v-QWs

thanks lewis

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ammendment #14

--- (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) (F) (G) (H) ---

13 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kelly, James

11 = 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Bury, William Henry

10 = 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Grainger, William Grant

09 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cutbush, Thomas Hayne

09 = 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Deeming, Frederick Bailey

09 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Hyams, Hyam

09 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Puckridge, Oswald

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Kosminski, Aaron (Aron Mordke Kozminski)

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John "Leather Apron"

08 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Lechmere, George Capel Scudamore

08 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Barnado, Thomas John

O8 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 1 : Thompson, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Chapman, George (Seweryn Antonowicz Kłosowski)

07 = 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 : Tumblety, Francis

07 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 : Smith, G. Wentworth Bell

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Cohen, David

07 = 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 : Kidney, Michael

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 : Thompson, Francis

06 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Levy, Jacob

06 = 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Pizer, John

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Druitt, Montague John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Barnett, Joseph

05 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 : Stephenson, Robert Donston (or Roslyn D'Onston)

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Sutton, Henry Gawen

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1- 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Buchan, Edward

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Williams, Dr. John

05 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Craig, Francis Spurzheim

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Stephen, James Kenneth

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Bachert, Albert

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Cross, Charles (Charles Allen Lechmere)

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hardiman, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Hutchinson, George

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Mann, Robert

04 = 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 : Maybrick, James

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Le Grand, Charles

04 = 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 : Maybrick, Michael

04 = 1 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 : Gull, Sir William Withey

03 = 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 : Sickert, Walter Richard




Legend:

(A) Age/physical health

. . . 2 = no issue

. . . 1 = issues creating doubt

(B) Location/access to murder sites

. . . 2 = no issues

. . . 1 = reasonable travel

. . . 0 = serious doubt

(C) Violence

. . . 4 = killed woman (non-relative) with knife

. . . 3 = killed female relative with knife

. . . 2 = violence with a knife

. . . 1 = violence without a knife

. . . 0 = no known violence

(D) Mental health issues

. . . 2 = serious/violent

. . . 1 = other

. . . 0 = none known

(E) Police interest

. . . 2 = at the time (without exoneration)

. . . 1 = later (within 10 yrs and without exoneration)

. . . 0 = none known or not serious

(F) Hatred/dislike of women/prostitutes

. . . 2 = yes

. . . 1 = link to prostitutes

. . . 0 = none known

(G) Medical/anatomical knowledge (inc. animals)

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known

(H) Alcohol/drug issue

. . . 1 = yes

. . . 0 = none known


Changes


I’ve changed the (B) section for Gull from 1 to 2. I’ve also removed the 0 option on reflection because that would mean a categorical elimination due to health/age and any suspect scoring zero couldn’t be on the list in the first place.

[Fiver]

Was not Gull in the area at the time John?

Sure, dismiss him for other reasons that you might favour, but as far as my knowledge of Gull goes, he was in London at the time and could easily have traveled in and around Whitechapel.

I'm pretty sure someone showed that Dr Gull was not living in London at the time.

[DJA]

Gull had his first stroke in 1887 while in Scotland.After a few weeks he returned to 74 Brook Street where he died in 1890.

He did attend a Royal Society meeting shortly after the Double Event.

[Jon Guy]

I'm pretty sure someone showed that Dr Gull was not living in London at the time.

Yes, I was thinking that someone found a newspaper report showing that Gull was out of London on locum.