Rating The Suspects.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Herlock


Can you please amend the data to reflect that Barnardo should have a '1' for violence and not a '0'




Many thanks



RD

Hi RD,

I’ll throw that one out there for a consensus view. It seems that this might have been a hard push/heel of the hand type of thing?

[The Rookie Detective]

Herlock


Can you please amend the data to reflect that Barnardo should have a '1' for violence and not a '0'




Many thanks



RD

[JeffHamm]

Hi George and Jerryd!

Thanks for those links. I have some reading to do, and may have read some of these already awhile back when McKenzie came up before (which I think is when the idea of interruption hit home, once I realised how busy the area was, and how close the police were to the crime scene, apparently when it actually happened too!).

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

Thanks George.

I had two follow up threads in addition to the one you linked, which may be of interest.

Was Alice McKenzie technically alive? - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

and

Castle Alley-A new perspective - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

The Technically Alive thread has the most detail if anyone is interested. It is rather long.

You mentioned the three officers, George. I think it is first important to mention that a couple letters had been received by the police and Albert Bachert prior to the McKenzie murder stating the ripper was about to re-commence operations. Extra men had been brought in and the beats re-arranged to put men in the alley more often. DI Reid stated the alley was hardly left alone for five minutes. Add to that there was a fixed officer just outside the entrance to Castle Alley at Whitechapel Road, That entrance, by the way, was VERY narrow.

It was a very tight timeframe for the murderer.

Thanks for those links Jerry. When I read the first thread I formed the impression that you may have entertained some suspicions regarding the three officers concerned. I have to re-read that thread, but I recall at the time that I thought that there was some suggestion that Badham may have been coming from the direction of the body when he met Allen. Perhaps I should have deferred that question until I read your follow up threads?

Cheers, George

[jerryd]

One last point for McKenzie and how tight the timeframe would have been. Hope not to derail the thread.

Please take a close look at the sketch and photograph below. The first is the murder scene where the "X" is on the door of David King and Sons. Notice up above how the building is slightly higher than the Wash House beside it. The Wash Houses are sandwiched in between the School (far right in that picture) and the murder scene building.



Now, in this photograph is the Three Crowns Pub on the left and where the small pole is on the right is where Badham met PC Andrews at 12:48ish. The brick building at the forefront of this photograph on the right, is the school. Looking down the alley you will see the Wash Houses on the right (lighter colored building with the barrow in front (The next building down would be the murder site. (notice the roof slightly taller than the Wash Houses building). That's how close Andrews and Badham were to the murder site.

[jerryd]

Thanks George.

I had two follow up threads in addition to the one you linked, which may be of interest.

Was Alice McKenzie technically alive? - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

and

Castle Alley-A new perspective - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

The Technically Alive thread has the most detail if anyone is interested. It is rather long.

You mentioned the three officers, George. I think it is first important to mention that a couple letters had been received by the police and Albert Bachert prior to the McKenzie murder stating the ripper was about to re-commence operations. Extra men had been brought in and the beats re-arranged to put men in the alley more often. DI Reid stated the alley was hardly left alone for five minutes. Add to that there was a fixed officer just outside the entrance to Castle Alley at Whitechapel Road, That entrance, by the way, was VERY narrow.

It was a very tight timeframe for the murderer.

[GBinOz]

While I'm not convinced McKenzie was a victim of JtR, at times I do wonder. My understanding is that there were people or police very close at hand at the time of the murder though, as in just up the road.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

There were three policemen in the area, Allen, Andrews and Sgt Baugham (Badham), the latter also being involved with the aftermath of the Chapman and MJK murders. Jerry Dunlop has a very interesting and informative thread here:

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-victims/other-possible-victims/alice-mackenzie/23672-something-doesn-t-add-up-alice-mackenzie-the-time-of-death

He examines the confusing and somewhat contradictory evidence given by these three officers. Only 6 pages, so not an onerous read.

Best regards, George

[JeffHamm]

Agreed Jeff. I’d describe my position as - I’m more inclined to say that she wasn’t a ripper victim but I’m not saying that she couldn’t have been.

I do find the scratches strange though Jeff. Could this have been a sign of hesitation before the main cut? Or could they have been a spur of the moment effort to make the injuries look worse?

Yah, I am of a similar view.

As for the scratches, it is hard to say. If they are fingernail marks, which I think is the general idea, then maybe it reflects a desire to inflict even more personally involved damage? That could be a JtR thing, the desire to get even more physically involved in the damage (which the mutilation and removing of organs and flesh from the bodies does - puts him directly in contact with the destruction - without even a knife between him and his victim). Or maybe it was just something incidental to this specific encounter and not necessarily "by design", which would be something that says nothing in particular about who her killer was.

Either way, it is something that differs from the C5 with regards to her case, but whether that reflect JtR trying new things or if it reflects a different killer, is unclear - at least to me, but a lot is unclear to me, hence my wishy washiness.

- Jeff

[Lewis C]

It looks like Cohen is still stuck in the middle. Somebody please try to move him up.

Hi Scott,

Cohen currently has a zero for police interest despite the fact that he first became a suspect because Martin Fido thought that he was the person most likely to be Anderson's Polish Jew suspect. I consider Cohen to be one of the stronger suspects in part because I think there's a good chance that Fido was right about that. We can't be sure that there was police interest in Cohen, but we also can't be sure there was police interest in Aaron Kosminski - Swanson and MacNaughton said "Kosminski", not "Aaron Kosminski". Kosminski is given a point, so unless "Kosminski" on the list means just that - Swanson's Kosminski, and not necessarily Aaron Kosminski - if Kosminski gets a point for police interest, maybe Cohen should too, or at least half a point.

[Herlock Sholmes]

While I'm not convinced McKenzie was a victim of JtR, at times I do wonder. My understanding is that there were people or police very close at hand at the time of the murder though, as in just up the road. If so, there is a very good possibility that the reduction in the mutilations reflect her killer (whether JtR or not), realizing this only after he started attacking her abdomen - basically it may be another case of interruption. Given all of the JtR murders could involve him almost getting caught (Nichols, as Cross/Lechmere and Paul may have interrupted him; Chapman with Cadosche; Stride with Deimshutz; Eddowes with PC Harvey or Morris), attacking in such risky conditions is not exactly unusual for JtR.

On the other hand, she appears to have been stabbed in the neck (twice though) rather than cut down to the bone. The opinions of both medical and police were divided as to whether or not she was a victim of JtR as well.

However, as I say, I'm not pushing the idea that McKenzie must be a victim of JtR, but also, I'm not sure the reduction in the mutilations necessarily means she isn't. Also, I think the fact that both the police and medical opinion was divided means some thought she was and others did not, so we can't really draw any direction from that other than clearly there were some reasons to consider both possibilities, which probably means we too should keep an open mind as to both possibilities.

- Jeff

Agreed Jeff. I’d describe my position as - I’m more inclined to say that she wasn’t a ripper victim but I’m not saying that she couldn’t have been.

I do find the scratches strange though Jeff. Could this have been a sign of hesitation before the main cut? Or could they have been a spur of the moment effort to make the injuries look worse?

[JeffHamm]

Although we can’t be certain whether Mackenzie was a victim or not I think that it has to be said that there appear to be real reasons for doubt. The obvious one is that we see an increase in the level of damage done by the killer from Nichols to Chapman to Eddowes to Kelly and then we get Mackenzie. Why?

Then we get this:

“Neither abdominal cavity opened – or muscular covering divided.”

It difficult to see why someone that had no problem ripping open four previous victims suddenly satisfies himself with this? It surely can’t be blamed on time because we would have to ask why the time wasted on making the scratches? So to me it smacks of someone that didn’t actually want to open up the abdomen which I can’t equate with the ripper.

I’m no medical man but this appears to me to be someone perhaps trying to make this look like a ripper murder. I’ve often wondered if the killer was someone that she knew? Someone who thought that if he made it appear to have been a ripper murder he would be out of the police spotlight if he had alibis for the other murders? Or maybe it was just a disturbed/drunken killer who was simply trying to copy the ripper?

Opinions will continue to differ on this. I’d be more inclined to view this more positively if it had occurred between Tabram and Nichols.

While I'm not convinced McKenzie was a victim of JtR, at times I do wonder. My understanding is that there were people or police very close at hand at the time of the murder though, as in just up the road. If so, there is a very good possibility that the reduction in the mutilations reflect her killer (whether JtR or not), realizing this only after he started attacking her abdomen - basically it may be another case of interruption. Given all of the JtR murders could involve him almost getting caught (Nichols, as Cross/Lechmere and Paul may have interrupted him; Chapman with Cadosche; Stride with Deimshutz; Eddowes with PC Harvey or Morris), attacking in such risky conditions is not exactly unusual for JtR.

On the other hand, she appears to have been stabbed in the neck (twice though) rather than cut down to the bone. The opinions of both medical and police were divided as to whether or not she was a victim of JtR as well.

However, as I say, I'm not pushing the idea that McKenzie must be a victim of JtR, but also, I'm not sure the reduction in the mutilations necessarily means she isn't. Also, I think the fact that both the police and medical opinion was divided means some thought she was and others did not, so we can't really draw any direction from that other than clearly there were some reasons to consider both possibilities, which probably means we too should keep an open mind as to both possibilities.

- Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

It looks like Cohen is still stuck in the middle. Somebody please try to move him up.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Amendment 9


Kelly > 2 - 2 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 = 13

Bury > 2 - 2 - 3 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 = 11

Cutbush > 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 = 9

Deeming > 2 - 1 - 4 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 = 9

Hyams > 2 - 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 = 9

Grainger > 2 - 1 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 1 -1 = 9

Kosminski 2 - 2 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 8

Pizer > 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 = 8

GSC Lechmere > 2 - 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 -1 = 8

Chapman > 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 7

Tumblety > 1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 = 7

Barnado > 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 = 7

G. Wentworth Bell Smith > 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 2 - 0 - 0 = 7

Cohen > 2 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 = 7

Kidney > 2 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 1 = 7

Thompson > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 - 0 = 6

Levy > 2 - 2 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 6

Druitt > 2 - 1 - 0 -1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 5

Barnett > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 = 5

Stephen > 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 -0 = 4

Stephenson > 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 1 = 5

Bachert > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4

Cross > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4

Hardiman > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4

Hutchinson > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4

Mann > 2 - 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 4

Maybrick > 2 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 = 4

Sickert > 2 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 - = 3

Gull > 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 2


Amendment made

A point added to Grainger for medical knowledge as suggested by Jerry Dunlop.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I tend to agree that I should leave it to the c5. It’s impossible to cover every angle. I’m still open for suggested additional criteria though.

[Lewis C]

Since we don't know whether Mackenzie was a Ripper murder or not, and both sides have reasonable arguments for their positions, I think that the best thing to do is for the scoring system to take a neutral position on the question. If Mackenzie was a Ripper murder, then Bury, Druitt, Cohen, Tumblety, and Hyams cannot have been the Ripper, but if MJK was the last Ripper murder, then for those suspects, we have an explanation for why the murders stopped. For most other suspects, it's the other way around: if she was a Ripper murder, they were available to kill her, but if MJK was the last Ripper murder, these other suspects don't give us an explanation for why the murders stopped. So if points are given either for being available for the Mackenzie murder or for giving us an explanation for why the murders stopped, it will favor one or the other view for whether Mackenzie was a Ripper victim. If points are given for both, it will mostly mean every suspect gets a point for one or the other, which wouldn't affect the overall outcome of the rating.