Rating The Suspects.

[Doctored Whatsit]

You are right. Not all doctors agreed that the Ripper had medical knowledge. So are telling us that because Thompson was very good at slicing into human beings he must not have been the man who sliced into 5 women?

Er, no doctor said that the Ripper had any medical knowledge. They specified anatomical knowledge only, and just to make their point clearer, they specifically mentioned people accustomed to cutting up animals. The phrase, someone accustomed to removing innards with one sweep of a knife, was also used, and this is a clear reference to butcher/slaughterers, not medically trained persons.

[Richard Patterson]

Not once does he use the word prostitute

Herlock,

You say “not once does he use the word prostitute.” That’s exactly the kind of shallow literalism that betrays how little you know about the man you defend so zealously. Just because you can’t find the word in black and white doesn’t mean the thing itself isn’t there. Thompson didn’t need to write the word “prostitute” when he painted them in venomous strokes—diseased bodies, fetid wombs, contagion, harlots. To pretend that his entire body of work isn’t saturated with contempt for prostitutes is to blind yourself to the evidence staring you in the face.

Take his piece under the pseudonym Tancred in Merry England (1891). He imagines London as a diseased battlefield where, in his own words, “the girls [are] harlots in the mother’s womb.” He frames the East End as a spiritual plague that must be purged. He speaks of “diagnosing” the city’s disease, of hearing the lashes and seeing men “dabbled with their own oozing life.” He ends with a crusader’s vision of children being better thrown from bridges than growing up among prostitutes. That’s not metaphorical hand-wringing. That is blade-imagery, war-imagery, the language of extermination—his life’s manifesto.

Or look at his unpublished play Napoleon Judges. Here, through the emperor’s voice, he writes: “Aye the harlot’s mercy he shall have! … The sword sometimes spares, the musket sometimes misses; the harlot never! Fair Destruction!” That is how Thompson thought of prostitutes: as unerring agents of ruin, worse than bullets. Again, you don’t need him to spell out the word “prostitute” when every line drips with it.

The truth is that you’re defending a sanitized, hagiographic version of Thompson written by the Meynells and repeated in encyclopedia entries, not the man as he actually was. The real Thompson wrote obsessively of harlots, of knives, of purging, of judgment. He described prostitutes not as human beings but as verminous ulcers to be cut out.

And this raises the question: why this zeal to protect him? Why such eagerness to strip his words of their plain meaning? I’ll be blunt—your stance risks coming across as misogynistic. To hand-wave away Thompson’s obsessional hatred of prostitutes is, intentionally or not, to belittle the lived reality of women who were actually mutilated in Whitechapel. In time, people will look back and ask: why did some men go to such lengths to defend him, even at the cost of tearing down the police, dismissing evidence, and ignoring the plain meaning of his own words?

If you want to debate probability models or challenge interpretations, fine—we can spar on the facts. But don’t insult everyone’s intelligence by claiming Thompson never showed hatred for prostitutes. It’s in his work, over and over again, and it defines him. That’s the record, and no amount of rhetorical hair-splitting changes it.

[Lewis C]

You are right. Not all doctors agreed that the Ripper had medical knowledge. So are telling us that because Thompson was very good at slicing into human beings he must not have been the man who sliced into 5 women?

If the Ripper didn't have to have had medical knowledge, it wouldn't mean that the Ripper didn't have it. It would mean that there's no more reason to suspect someone with medical knowledge than someone without it.

[Richard Patterson]

When I say that ‘he never harmed anyone’ I could perhaps re-phrase it.

So I’ll say “we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Francis Thompson ever physically harmed anyone in his entire life” That is the exact and literal truth. If you have a problem with the exact and literal truth Richard I’d suggest that the issue is with you.

Herlock,

You’ve shifted the phrase from “he never harmed anyone” to “we have no evidence that he ever harmed anyone.” But that’s a sleight of hand. The absence of a signed confession or a police charge is not the same as absence of evidence.

We do have evidence: Thompson’s own words in prose and verse where he describes prostitutes as “putrid ulcerations of love…a blasphemy against love’s language.” That is not neutral metaphor—it is violent dehumanization. We have his acknowledged years in Whitechapel carrying a dissecting scalpel. We have his pyromania, his documented asylum stays, his obsessive pursuit of a runaway prostitute, and Major Smith’s profile aligning with him point for point. Each of these is evidence—documented, sourced, and historically attested.

You can choose to dismiss that evidence as insufficient, but it is misleading to say there is “none.” Evidence comes in many forms: writings, testimonies, behaviors, timelines, professional records, and police descriptions. A jury weighs such evidence to reach a conclusion; they don’t throw it out because it isn’t a direct eyewitness account of the crime itself.

If you want to argue that the evidence doesn’t convince you, that’s fair. But to claim there is “no evidence whatsoever” is inaccurate. The record is full of it.

[Richard Patterson]

Your statement is provably false.

Here are the actual opinions of the medical types.

Dr Llewellyn - “some rough anatomical knowledge”

Coroner Baxter - "considerable anatomical skill and knowledge”

Dr Phillips - "seemed to indicate great anatomical knowledge.”

Dr Sequeira - "not possessed of any great anatomical skill"

Dr Brown - “a great deal of knowledge”

Dr Saunders did not think the killer showed anatomical skill.

Dr Bond - "no scientific nor anatomical knowledge" IIRC, Thomas Bond read the reports in the victims, he did not examine the bodies.

So the assessments of skill are:
None - Bond, Saunders
Some - Lllewellyn, Sequeira
A lot - Baxter, Brown, Phillips

The majority of the doctors thought Thompson had too much medical knowledge to be the Ripper.

You are right. Not all doctors agreed that the Ripper had medical knowledge. So are telling us that because Thompson was very good at slicing into human beings he must not have been the man who sliced into 5 women?

[Fiver]

(A) Age/physical health. Thompson was 29 in 1888, the prime age range for serial offenders. Yes, he was a laudanum addict, but contemporaries remarked that despite frailty he could walk the streets for hours. The Ripper did not need to overpower healthy men — only inebriated women. A “1” here is too harsh.

Yet you call him frail.

(C) Violence. “No known violence” isn’t accurate. Thompson’s prose (not just poetry) described prostitutes as “putrid ulcerations” who deserved to be “struck down.” In Nightmare of the Witch-Babies he graphically mutilates female figures. This is violence expressed in words, confirmed by his own biographers, and should count.

Herlock's scale is about actual violence committed. “No known violence” is the correct rating for Thompson, since we have no evidence that he ever harmed another person.

(D) Mental health. More than “other.” He had asylum stays, suicide attempts, hallucinations — major red flags for instability.

Here's the actual scale.
(D) Mental health issues > 2 = serious/violent/sexual/1 = other/0 = none known.

None of Thompson's problems reach level 2.

(E) Police interest. You write “none known,” but Major Henry Smith (City Police Commissioner) described a suspect in his 1910 memoir: a medical student, asylum inmate, tied to prostitutes, coin fraud, and Rupert Street. That combination is uniquely Thompson. Smith’s suspect is police interest.

"He proved an alibi without the shadow of doubt." - Henry Smith

If Smith's suspect is Thompson, then Thompson is innocent. Smith never names his subject, so the correct answer is “none known”.

(F) Hatred of prostitutes. This isn’t just “link.” Thompson’s writings are saturated with disgust for prostitutes, couched in medical imagery. It’s far stronger than casual dislike.

Your interpretation of Thompson's writing is not a fact. You also ignore that he had an extremely positive relation with a prostitute who he believed saved his life.

(G) Medical knowledge. Six years of formal anatomy, pathology under Dreschfeld, and possession of his own scalpel. That’s beyond a “1.”

(G) Medical/anatomical knowledge (inc. animals) > 1 = yes/0 = none known

The scale does not go to 2 on this point.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Fiver, thanks for laying that out — but your scoring rests on assumptions that simply don’t fit the record.

(A) Age/physical health. Thompson was 29 in 1888, the prime age range for serial offenders. Yes, he was a laudanum addict, but contemporaries remarked that despite frailty he could walk the streets for hours. The Ripper did not need to overpower healthy men — only inebriated women. A “1” here is too harsh.

(C) Violence. “No known violence” isn’t accurate. Thompson’s prose (not just poetry) described prostitutes as “putrid ulcerations” who deserved to be “struck down.” In Nightmare of the Witch-Babies he graphically mutilates female figures. This is violence expressed in words, confirmed by his own biographers, and should count.

(D) Mental health. More than “other.” He had asylum stays, suicide attempts, hallucinations — major red flags for instability.

(E) Police interest. You write “none known,” but Major Henry Smith (City Police Commissioner) described a suspect in his 1910 memoir: a medical student, asylum inmate, tied to prostitutes, coin fraud, and Rupert Street. That combination is uniquely Thompson. Smith’s suspect is police interest.

(F) Hatred of prostitutes. This isn’t just “link.” Thompson’s writings are saturated with disgust for prostitutes, couched in medical imagery. It’s far stronger than casual dislike.

(G) Medical knowledge. Six years of formal anatomy, pathology under Dreschfeld, and possession of his own scalpel. That’s beyond a “1.”

If we reapply the system using actual biographical data, Thompson rises above the usual “maybes.” The weight of documented traits justifies the 14 I assigned. Scoring him low only works by stripping out his violence (in text), his police link (Smith’s profile), and his hatred (prose, not metaphor).

In other words: if Herlock’s system is meant to capture risk factors, then Thompson fits them more than anyone. To pretend otherwise is to handicap the data.

You are not using the system honestly. It’s the kind of thing that you would expect from say, someone that used this ‘lower than whales**t’ piece of propaganda:

“The sooner this spreads, the greater the good it does — for truth, for justice, for history, for the memory of the five women, and for our collective cultural health.
Those who share and support this now will be seen as the vanguard of that change. Their names will be remembered — not as people who doubted or delayed, but who helped truth win.
Please — take this moment. Share. Speak. Help carry this breakthrough forward.
Beauty is truth, truth beauty — and the world needs more of both.“

To be honest - one of the most despicable passages that I’ve ever read on the subject.

[Herlock Sholmes]

. F) Hatred of prostitutes. This isn’t just “link.” Thompson’s writings are saturated with disgust for prostitutes, couched in medical imagery. It’s far stronger than casual dislike.

Not once does he use the word prostitute

[Herlock Sholmes]

C) Violence. “No known violence” isn’t accurate. Thompson’s prose (not just poetry) described prostitutes as “putrid ulcerations” who deserved to be “struck down.”

Why can’t you get this point Richard?

We are talking about VIOLENCE. Actual, real, physical violence. Not someone talking about it. Words aren’t violence.

“No known violence” is 100% accurate.

[Richard Patterson]

Your rescoring is based on ignoring Herlock's scoring. Among other things, you rate Thompson a 2 in an area where Herlock's system gives 1 as a maximum.

Using the actual scoring method, I'd rate Thompson as:

(A) Age/physical health > 1 = issues creating doubt.

(B) Location/access to murder sites > 2 = no issues

(C) Violence > 0 = no known violence.

(D) Mental health issues > 1 = other

(E) Police interest > 0 = none known or not serious.

(F) Hatred/dislike of women/prostitutes > 1 = link to prostitutes

(G) Medical/anatomical knowledge (inc. animals) > 1 = yes

(H) Alcohol/drug issue > 1 = yes

Fiver, thanks for laying that out — but your scoring rests on assumptions that simply don’t fit the record.

(A) Age/physical health. Thompson was 29 in 1888, the prime age range for serial offenders. Yes, he was a laudanum addict, but contemporaries remarked that despite frailty he could walk the streets for hours. The Ripper did not need to overpower healthy men — only inebriated women. A “1” here is too harsh.

(C) Violence. “No known violence” isn’t accurate. Thompson’s prose (not just poetry) described prostitutes as “putrid ulcerations” who deserved to be “struck down.” In Nightmare of the Witch-Babies he graphically mutilates female figures. This is violence expressed in words, confirmed by his own biographers, and should count.

(D) Mental health. More than “other.” He had asylum stays, suicide attempts, hallucinations — major red flags for instability.

(E) Police interest. You write “none known,” but Major Henry Smith (City Police Commissioner) described a suspect in his 1910 memoir: a medical student, asylum inmate, tied to prostitutes, coin fraud, and Rupert Street. That combination is uniquely Thompson. Smith’s suspect is police interest.

(F) Hatred of prostitutes. This isn’t just “link.” Thompson’s writings are saturated with disgust for prostitutes, couched in medical imagery. It’s far stronger than casual dislike.

(G) Medical knowledge. Six years of formal anatomy, pathology under Dreschfeld, and possession of his own scalpel. That’s beyond a “1.”

If we reapply the system using actual biographical data, Thompson rises above the usual “maybes.” The weight of documented traits justifies the 14 I assigned. Scoring him low only works by stripping out his violence (in text), his police link (Smith’s profile), and his hatred (prose, not metaphor).

In other words: if Herlock’s system is meant to capture risk factors, then Thompson fits them more than anyone. To pretend otherwise is to handicap the data.

[Fiver]

[*]Medical knowledge: contemporary doctors disagreed — but all agreed that at least some skill was shown in organ removal.

Your statement is provably false.

Here are the actual opinions of the medical types.

Dr Llewellyn - “some rough anatomical knowledge”

Coroner Baxter - "considerable anatomical skill and knowledge”

Dr Phillips - "seemed to indicate great anatomical knowledge.”

Dr Sequeira - "not possessed of any great anatomical skill"

Dr Brown - “a great deal of knowledge”

Dr Saunders did not think the killer showed anatomical skill.

Dr Bond - "no scientific nor anatomical knowledge" IIRC, Thomas Bond read the reports in the victims, he did not examine the bodies.

So the assessments of skill are:
None - Bond, Saunders
Some - Lllewellyn, Sequeira
A lot - Baxter, Brown, Phillips

The majority of the doctors thought Thompson had too much medical knowledge to be the Ripper.

[Fiver]

Re-scoring on that basis:

Thompson > 2 (age) – 2 (location) – 2 (violence/weapon) – 2 (mental health) – 2 (police) – 2 (hatred of prostitutes) – 2 (medical training) = 14

That score suddenly makes him the single strongest suspect on the list. And unlike most of the others, he has both presence in Whitechapel at the critical time and a unique, demonstrable overlap with the City Police’s own suspect profile.

Your rescoring is based on ignoring Herlock's scoring. Among other things, you rate Thompson a 2 in an area where Herlock's system gives 1 as a maximum.

Using the actual scoring method, I'd rate Thompson as:

(A) Age/physical health > 1 = issues creating doubt.

(B) Location/access to murder sites > 2 = no issues

(C) Violence > 0 = no known violence.

(D) Mental health issues > 1 = other

(E) Police interest > 0 = none known or not serious.

(F) Hatred/dislike of women/prostitutes > 1 = link to prostitutes

(G) Medical/anatomical knowledge (inc. animals) > 1 = yes

(H) Alcohol/drug issue > 1 = yes

[Herlock Sholmes]

Herlock, when you reduce Thompson to “a gentle but troubled poet who never harmed anyone,” despite the mountain of evidence — his violent writings, his own testimony of life in Whitechapel, his scalpel, his medical training, his fire-setting, his asylum stays, and his obsession with a runaway prostitute — it shows you’re not actually engaging with the sources. You’re repeating a hagiography written by his editors, not the man himself.

I’ve laid out documented facts; you dismiss them with a slogan. That tells me you’re not interested in the truth, only in defending a preferred image.

At that point, there’s no point continuing. I’ll leave you to your view, but for me the record stands as it is.

When I say that ‘he never harmed anyone’ I could perhaps re-phrase it.

So I’ll say “we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Francis Thompson ever physically harmed anyone in his entire life” That is the exact and literal truth. If you have a problem with the exact and literal truth Richard I’d suggest that the issue is with you.

[Richard Patterson]

A gentle but troubled, drug addicted vagrant poet who never harmed anyone in his life.

Herlock, when you reduce Thompson to “a gentle but troubled poet who never harmed anyone,” despite the mountain of evidence — his violent writings, his own testimony of life in Whitechapel, his scalpel, his medical training, his fire-setting, his asylum stays, and his obsession with a runaway prostitute — it shows you’re not actually engaging with the sources. You’re repeating a hagiography written by his editors, not the man himself.

I’ve laid out documented facts; you dismiss them with a slogan. That tells me you’re not interested in the truth, only in defending a preferred image.

At that point, there’s no point continuing. I’ll leave you to your view, but for me the record stands as it is.

[GBinOz]

Just by the way my friend. It appears to me that your rating of Bury in the rating of suspects is erroneous. As far as is known, Bury never killed anyone with a knife. Any injuries inflicted by Bury with a knife were post mortem.