Rating The Suspects.

[FISHY1118]

No. If someone claims to have explained or answered something and someone says that they haven’t seen any explanation or answer it’s a matter of basic manners to either repeat the explanation/answer or to provide a link to it rather than expect someone to Wade through random threads to find it. If you have a conversation with someone and they don’t hear your answer properly do you refuse to repeat? The other threads were ruined by yourself and PI. Instead of ignoring you both I foolishly tried to reason with you and became irritated.

You were shown links, and or #post on both the threads i mentioned ,so another misconception on your behalf . What you called ''reason'' i and others call a total lack of other posters opinions based on the evidence as they interpret it .

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Kattrup,

Not possibly, Gull had an honour degree in Surgery and he was a lecturer for Anatomy in the medical school, he of course is better than a mere son of a surgeon like Druitt.


The Baron

No, he didn’t have an honours degree in surgery. He had an honours degree of which surgery was one of the modules. Gull chose not to pursue surgery as a career though. We know that he didn’t pursue surgery as a career because he wasn’t a surgeon. No one calls him a surgeon. He isn’t listed as a surgeon. He performed no operations. He wasn’t a member of the F.R.C.S. Every time his name appears he’s called a Physician. Not a surgeon. And he is never called a surgeon because…..he wasn’t a surgeon.

On the criteria - medical/anatomical knowledge - Gull very obviously scores higher than Druitt. It’s why I gave him the full point and Druitt no point. I don’t really see how I can make this any clearer Baron? If you tell me why you aren’t getting it then I might be better able to explain it to you better.

If he is a better suspect than Druitt because of the medical/anatomical knowledge criteria, as you say, then you would have to concede of course that it would mean that he was also a better suspect than Kosminski too? Being fair of course.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And again just for you, a person who has an honour degree in Surgery is a better suspect than a son of a surgeon.


Aka Gull is a better suspect than Druitt in that regard, remember this always whenever you try to promote Druitt as a son of a surgeon



The Baron

And again, just for you Baron. From the list.


Druitt > 2 - 1 - 0 -1 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 = 5

Gull > 0 - 1 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0 - 1 - 0 = 2


1) If you had bothered to look at the list you would have seen that Gull has the maximum full point and Druitt gets a zero so I’m not putting them at the same level on that particular criteria and never have. You have complained about a non-existent point. Well done.

2) I haven’t ‘promoted’ him as the son of a surgeon because, again if you’d actually read what I’d written elsewhere, all that I said was that while we have no evidence of Druitt having any medical/anatomical knowledge, more than most he’d have had easy access to it. Thats all that I said. No more than that and I certainly awarded him no points for that entirely harmless and fair suggestion.

3) We can’t judge a suspect based on just one of the 8 criteria which is what you are pointlessly trying to do. The list is about an accumulation of points. I thought that this was obvious to all.

4) The criteria are stated openly so everyone can see what each individual suspect has been awarded so it’s actually impossible for me to get away with being biased in favour of Druitt. As everyone can see.

5) I have made changes based on the thoughts of others several times. I even added a point to Sickert after Fishy made the suggestion proving that I’m not biased.

6) A person is more inclined to bias if they have a definite suspect/theory to support. You think that Kosminski was the killer. Fishy thinks that Gull was the killer. I only suggest that Druitt might have been the killer. Posts by yourself and Fishy support this in that they show obvious bias.

7) Kosminski is named by a senior police officer. Druitt is named by a senior police officer. Conveniently you only have a problem with the latter though.

8) Anderson was a Barrister before he joined the police. Macnaghten was in business before he joined the police. Conveniently you only have a problem with the latter though.

9) We have no other evidence against Kosminski. We have no other evidence against Druitt. Conveniently you only have a problem with the latter though.

10) And to finish off….this is a discussion board. We make points for discussion and ask and answer questions. It would be nice, although a shock, if you could occasionally bring yourself to actually responding to a point that’s made. I answer everyone of the points made by yourself and Fishy. You two avoid responding directly to points at all costs. I can only conclude that’s it’s because you have no answers to give and that you know this.

[The Baron]

What that means, if anything, for his suspectstatus is another matter. As is Gull possibly having surgical knowledge or skill.

Hi Kattrup,

Not possibly, Gull had an honour degree in Surgery and he was a lecturer for Anatomy in the medical school, he of course is better than a mere son of a surgeon like Druitt.


The Baron

[Kattrup]

Hi Kattrup,

So an honour degree in Surgery, not just some class as you mentioned, wouldn't allow him to practice any kind of operations in his hospital you say?

And please don't tell me that the Ripper must have passed an examination at the royal college of surgeons.

A person who has an honour degree in Surgery is a better suspect than a son of a surgeon, if this category is important at all.


The Baron

Hi baron

I think you’re getting your arguments mixed up.

After you chided Herlock for saying Gull was not a surgeon, I just pointed out that Herlock was correct, Gull was not.

What that means, if anything, for his suspectstatus is another matter. As is Gull possibly having surgical knowledge or skill.

[The Baron]

Gull wasn’t a surgeon. End of debate.

That category is one of eight categories. No one can say for certain what level of skill the killer had. You’ve deliberately disregarded the aim of the exercise all because you cannot let go of a grudge.

And again just for you, a person who has an honour degree in Surgery is a better suspect than a son of a surgeon.


Aka Gull is a better suspect than Druitt in that regard, remember this always whenever you try to promote Druitt as a son of a surgeon



The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

Gull wasn’t a surgeon. End of debate.

That category is one of eight categories. No one can say for certain what level of skill the killer had. You’ve deliberately disregarded the aim of the exercise all because you cannot let go of a grudge.

[The Baron]

Hello Baron

you May have to wait a while. Taking a class in surgery does not mean qualifying as a surgeon.

In order to become a surgeon, Gull would have to have passed an examination at the Royal College of Surgeons. I do not believe he did, and so he was never a surgeon.

Hi Kattrup,

So an honour degree in Surgery, not just some class as you mentioned, wouldn't allow him to practice any kind of operations in his hospital you say?

And please don't tell me that the Ripper must have passed an examination at the royal college of surgeons.

A person who has an honour degree in Surgery is a better suspect than a son of a surgeon, if this category is important at all.


The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

Fishy is attacking something that Herlock didn't say.

And The Baron is agreeing with someone who is attacking something that was never said in the first place. You couldn’t make this up Fiver.

Then again, I remember years ago in a Richardson someone sarcastically said that perhaps Richardson didn’t see the body because he was blind in one eye and had long hair which fell over his left eye.

Guess who thought that was actually the case?

[Herlock Sholmes]

To the Glory of God and in memory of William Withey Gull, Bart M.D., F.R.S.D., C.L., Oxon., Cantab., and Edin
Physician to Her Majesty Queen Victoria and to Albert Edward, Prince of Wales
Physician and Lecturer and finally A Governor of this Hospital

No mention of F.R.C.S. Clearly not a surgeon.

I wonder when the apology will show up. I predict a period of silence.

[Herlock Sholmes]

From Wikipedia :

"Gull, encouraged by Harrison, determined to make the most of his opportunity, and resolved to try for every prize for which he could compete in the hospital in the course of that year. He succeeded in gaining every one. During the first year of his residence at Guy's, together with his other studies he carried on his own education in Greek, Latin, and Mathematics, and in 1838 he matriculated at the recently founded University of London. In 1841 he took his M.B. degree, and gained honours in physiology, comparative anatomy, medicine, and surgery"


I am waiting for your apology, for yet another factual error.



The Baron

As Kattrup has already pointed out. Gull wasn’t a surgeon. A surgeon performs operations. Find me one example of Gull performing an operation.

He was a Physician.

[Kattrup]

From Wikipedia :

"Gull, encouraged by Harrison, determined to make the most of his opportunity, and resolved to try for every prize for which he could compete in the hospital in the course of that year. He succeeded in gaining every one. During the first year of his residence at Guy's, together with his other studies he carried on his own education in Greek, Latin, and Mathematics, and in 1838 he matriculated at the recently founded University of London. In 1841 he took his M.B. degree, and gained honours in physiology, comparative anatomy, medicine, and surgery"


I am waiting for your apology, for yet another factual error.



The Baron

Hello Baron

you May have to wait a while. Taking a class in surgery does not mean qualifying as a surgeon.

In order to become a surgeon, Gull would have to have passed an examination at the Royal College of Surgeons. I do not believe he did, and so he was never a surgeon.

[Fiver]

Agree with you Fishy.


The Baron

Fishy is attacking something that Herlock didn't say.

[The Baron]

- Sorry to disappoint you but Gull wasn’t a surgeon.

From Wikipedia :

"Gull, encouraged by Harrison, determined to make the most of his opportunity, and resolved to try for every prize for which he could compete in the hospital in the course of that year. He succeeded in gaining every one. During the first year of his residence at Guy's, together with his other studies he carried on his own education in Greek, Latin, and Mathematics, and in 1838 he matriculated at the recently founded University of London. In 1841 he took his M.B. degree, and gained honours in physiology, comparative anatomy, medicine, and surgery"


I am waiting for your apology, for yet another factual error.



The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

This may actually be your weakest post yet Baron. Quite an achievement when we consider the others.

Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

and yet a physically fit


Like what?! 70- 80% of England population at the time?!

- Surely purpose of this exercise can’t be lost on you? I applied a series of criteria, that have been applied to suspects in general over the years, just to get a picture of what ‘type’ of person might be the likeliest to have been the killer. I invited input from others and then I applied the criteria to a list of suspects. I displayed everything in the open, I invited comment and suggestion and have made numerous changes after taking advice from others. I could not have been fairer. Only 2 people seem to disagree (both of whom have an obvious antagonism toward me and so appear unable to use calm reason)
The fact that Druitt is ok on age and fitness isn’t intended to prove that he was the killer. Of a list of 28 suspects, 26 scored the full 2 points. You’ve expressed no issue that anyone else has 2 points (your own suspect Kosminski included) and yet you feel it worthwhile to single out Druitt. Again.


Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

son of a surgeon


Are son of surgeons known to be serial killers

If anything, a surgeon like Gull would be a better suspect than a son of a surgeon.


- Sorry to disappoint you but Gull wasn’t a surgeon.


Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

whose mother is committed to an asylum weeks before the first murder


No one knows what and when was the first ripper murder

- Most consider either Tabram or Nichols to have been the first. It doesn’t matter which unless a suspect has an alibi for that murder and Druitt doesn’t.


Do serial killers start killing after their mothers been committed to asylums?!


- What a strange thing to say? Who knows what might trigger a serial killer but they are often affected by traumatic events in their lives. I haven’t suggested that Druitt became a killer after his mother had been committed. I simply expressed the possibility that this might have adversely affected the balance of his mind. It was a point worth noting; that’s all. No one else took issue with it very abuse they could see that it was only a piece of speculation on my part. Your reaction as ever is entirely disproportionate.


Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

and who killed himself just after the Kelly murder


Druitt didn't kill himself just after the Kelly murder


- If you are going to quibble over what ‘just after’ means then please do it elsewhere. ‘Just after’ doesn’t have to mean minutes or seconds later. A matter of days.


The Kelly murder must not be the last ripper murder


- Like Tabram, Mackenzie is disputed. We have no way of being certain. Unsurprisingly you have, in the past, claimed for a certainty that she was, purely because abuse you want to dismiss Druitt. That’s up to you. Though I’m guessing that you make sure to dismiss Coles as a victim because she died after Kosminski was incarcerated.


And most serial killers don't kill themselves.


- If you can find me some solid evidence that a suicide must be excluded as a potential serial killer then I’ll listen. Until then I’ll give it a miss thanks.


Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

and is mentioned as a likely suspect by the Chief Constable of the Met


Ostrog was mentioned by the tea merchant too, does that make him a better suspect


- If Macnaghten is so clueless on Druitt, then why isn’t he clueless on Kosminski as he’s mentioned too? So the man that you criticise for his former job is only a poor judge of suspects in 2 out of 3 suggestions? It’s good to see that you can retain a sense of balance Baron. You’re suspect was named by a Barrister and a religious obsessive.


Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

is somehow a non-starter. Where’s the sense of balance?


Exactly, where is the sense of balance?


- I’m happy with my assessments. Only you and Fishy have complained and that doesn’t bother me in the slightest.


Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

Of course, from what we know of him he sounds an unlikely ripper and yet he’s mentioned?


like Ostrog?!


- And Kosminski. You keep forgetting to mention him.


Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

It’s likelier of course that the ripper was someone like Bury or Kelly


Then Druitt is out.

- Well, if you take that viewpoint Baron then is bye bye Kosminski too.



The Baron

I won’t bother explaining the purpose of this thread again Baron. If you couldn’t grasp it the first time I fear that repetition won’t help. Basically you’re only posting for personal reasons. You have no interest in contributing or making constructive comments but then again, this is all that you appear to do when you post on here.

I’ll leave it to others to decide if I’ve been fair and unbiased on this thread.