Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Leary and Law, further reading?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • rjpalmer
    replied
    Here is John Leary #1 in the Wellington Barracks in the 1881 census. Unfortunately, there's a Lee, a Lane, a Lawton, and even a Littlechild, but no Law.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Wellington Barracks 1881 John Leary.jpg
Views:	53
Size:	285.8 KB
ID:	834507

    Leave a comment:


  • rjpalmer
    replied
    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
    so this seemingly eliminates him as PC Law.
    Make that...Private Law...

    Leave a comment:


  • rjpalmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra A View Post
    Joseph Law
    Brilliant. Thank you.

    I see he had the inevitable bouts of syphilis and gonorrhea.

    As you noted in your original post, he's in the First Battalion (presumably stationed in Wellington Barracks) and a corporal, so this seemingly eliminates him as PC Law.

    Still, it's good to identify him. Well done.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra A
    replied
    Joseph Law

    Click image for larger version

Name:	1 joseph.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	190.2 KB
ID:	834341
    Click image for larger version

Name:	2 joseph.jpg
Views:	100
Size:	189.5 KB
ID:	834340

    Click image for larger version

Name:	3 joseph.jpg
Views:	98
Size:	172.1 KB
ID:	834339 Click image for larger version

Name:	4 joseph.jpg
Views:	103
Size:	172.8 KB
ID:	834338
    Click image for larger version

Name:	5 joseph.jpg
Views:	102
Size:	180.3 KB
ID:	834337 Click image for larger version

Name:	6 joseph.jpg
Views:	101
Size:	161.2 KB
ID:	834335 Click image for larger version

Name:	7 joseph.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	153.4 KB
ID:	834336

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra A
    replied
    Originally posted by A P Tomlinson View Post

    Blimey! That scene from the first series of Whitechapel where the squadie suspect breaks out of barracks suddenly seems REALLY well researched!
    Thank you for the documents Debra, I'm going to go back and have a dig and see if I can trace back through the chain and see if I can find where "John" Laws sprang from.

    One thing that I'm not up to speed with is the conventions used on these forms.
    Does anyone know what a series of entries marked "No Entry" would mean?
    Would they be the result of normal regular medical checks where nothing was wrong? Or something trivial like a headache? Or as a continuation of treatment for the previously noted condition as a sort of "ditto" remark?
    You're welcome AP
    The medical form entries are headed admission and discharge to/from hospital so 'no entry' most likely means there was nothing medically wrong requiring admission.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra A
    replied
    Good spot RJ, I couldn't immediately find Joseph's attestation papers on FMP because it looks like he transferred to the 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards on 15 September 1888 as a Corporal. Before that on 23 July 1888 he was apparently a posted corporal in the 2nd battalion Grenadier Guards. He was originally attested in to the 91st regiment as a 14 year old, which was why his records didn't appear under the Grenadier Guards papers. I can post his papers but it will have to be later this evening again.
    Last edited by Debra A; 05-15-2024, 03:00 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • rjpalmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra A View Post
    Thanks RJ. There was definitely no John Law in the Grenadier Guards in 1888 anyway.
    The only man who seemed to fit age wise and time wise is this man, William Lawes. also infected with syphilis and gonorrhoea. He left the barracks in July and returned 23 August 88 so that would rule him out as being Leary's alibi I'd guess?
    Here are his papers anyway (to follow):
    Thanks, Debs. It's interesting to see how much time these soldiers spent in hospital with STDs.

    Here's someone I noticed, but I have no other information.

    UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Admissions and Discharges, 1715-1925

    Name Joseph Law
    Rank Musician
    Discharge Age 35
    Pension Age 35
    Record Type register
    Birth Date abt 1858
    Birth Place St Anns, Belfast
    Discharge Date 30 Nov 1893
    pension date 5 Dec 1893
    Regiment Grenadier, Guards
    Regimental Number 1495

    Leave a comment:


  • A P Tomlinson
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra A View Post

    I hadn't realised until you posted this that the other soldiers name was also supposedly named John.
    When I looked for the A to Z, the only man named Law in the Grenadier Guards at the right time that I could find was a Suffolk man named William Lawes. There was a slight problem with him in that it appeared he was reprimanded for breaking out of barracks around August 88 and returned in September. I can't remember the exact details. If no one posts the the attestations papers in the meantime I'll post them when I get in later.
    Blimey! That scene from the first series of Whitechapel where the squadie suspect breaks out of barracks suddenly seems REALLY well researched!
    Thank you for the documents Debra, I'm going to go back and have a dig and see if I can trace back through the chain and see if I can find where "John" Laws sprang from.

    One thing that I'm not up to speed with is the conventions used on these forms.
    Does anyone know what a series of entries marked "No Entry" would mean?
    Would they be the result of normal regular medical checks where nothing was wrong? Or something trivial like a headache? Or as a continuation of treatment for the previously noted condition as a sort of "ditto" remark?

    Leave a comment:


  • A P Tomlinson
    replied
    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post


    Hi A P,

    Regarding the two men named John Leary traced by Phil Sugden...

    Gary Barnett, a talented researcher who unraveled the mysteries of Alice McKenzie's personal history (you've probably seen him over on JTR Forums) noticed your post and contacted me through a mutual correspondent, sending along the attestation papers for both men.

    This should help. And let me express my thanks to Gary for his generosity, as I've never seen them, either.

    I'll post them presently--twelve pages in all.
    That's incredible, thank you so much, and as I use the JtR Forums more in a "Read Only" sense, if you could pass on my thanks to those involved that would be great. I shall print these off and have a look later tonght!

    Last edited by A P Tomlinson; 05-15-2024, 02:01 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra A
    replied
    Click image for larger version

Name:	1.jpg
Views:	129
Size:	170.5 KB
ID:	834298 Click image for larger version

Name:	2.jpg
Views:	132
Size:	168.6 KB
ID:	834301 Click image for larger version

Name:	3.jpg
Views:	129
Size:	164.5 KB
ID:	834300 Click image for larger version

Name:	4.jpg
Views:	129
Size:	162.0 KB
ID:	834299 Click image for larger version

Name:	5.jpg
Views:	131
Size:	162.9 KB
ID:	834297 Click image for larger version

Name:	6.jpg
Views:	133
Size:	155.6 KB
ID:	834295 Click image for larger version

Name:	7.jpg
Views:	131
Size:	147.0 KB
ID:	834296 William Lawes

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra A
    replied
    Thanks RJ. There was definitely no John Law in the Grenadier Guards in 1888 anyway.
    The only man who seemed to fit age wise and time wise is this man, William Lawes. also infected with syphilis and gonorrhoea. He left the barracks in July and returned 23 August 88 so that would rule him out as being Leary's alibi I'd guess?
    Here are his papers anyway (to follow):



    Leave a comment:


  • rjpalmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra A View Post
    I hadn't realised until you posted this that the other soldiers name was also supposedly named John.
    I think supposedly is a good way of putting it. I thought that that was the case, but Inspector Reid doesn't give the man's first name, so I may well be wrong. I'm not sure where I picked up that assumption.

    For the treatment Leary No #1 received during his second bout of syphilis, it might read Iod[ine]of iron.

    The following is from a lecture by Langston Parker, Surgeon to the Queen's Hospital, Birmingham (1852)


    Click image for larger version

Name:	Parker on Treating Syphilis.jpg
Views:	132
Size:	188.4 KB
ID:	834277

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra A
    replied
    Originally posted by rjPalmer
    I think there was even less information on John Law.
    I hadn't realised until you posted this that the other soldiers name was also supposedly named John.
    When I looked for the A to Z, the only man named Law in the Grenadier Guards at the right time that I could find was a Suffolk man named William Lawes. There was a slight problem with him in that it appeared he was reprimanded for breaking out of barracks around August 88 and returned in September. I can't remember the exact details. If no one posts the the attestations papers in the meantime I'll post them when I get in later.

    Leave a comment:


  • rjpalmer
    replied
    Probably no great rarity for a 19th Century soldier, but if I'm interpreting it correctly, Leary the Welshman apparently had a bout of syphilis in Dublin in 1883 that was treated with mercury, and a second bout in London in 1885 treated with an incision, poultice, and iodine (?) or something. It's difficult to deciphering that last bit.

    Sounds unpleasant.

    Nine counts of drunkenness in nine years, but it cuts both ways, as his last infraction was 24 September 1885.

    Maybe he had had enough of the riotous life and took the pledge.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	Leary Welshman.jpg Views:	0 Size:	88.6 KB ID:	834267
    Last edited by rjpalmer; 05-14-2024, 02:02 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    These documents are fabulous

    Thank you kindly for uploading them and special thanks to Gary for initiating the sharing of the data.


    It is really is difficult to say which; if either, of the men are the correct man.


    My instinct is telling me its the Welshman; which probably means it's the Irish one!


    Haha!



    As an aside to this...


    Has anyone considered the similarity between John Leary...and a certain Mr Cleary?


    I would be surprised if there hasn't been



    So I am going to ask the most obvious of questions...


    Could the correct John Leary be the same man as the mysterious, Mr Cleary?


    Many thanks



    RD

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X