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  • Leary and Law, further reading?

    I've just been reading up on some of the details surrounding the Martha Tabram murder, and I'm struggling to find much in the way of any digging that might have been done in regard to the soldiers John, "Leary and Law". Leary being the solider picked out by PC Barrett, and Law being his alibi.

    Does anyone know of any subsequent research into who they were, which regiment they belonged to, and any potential for matching duty rosters to the time line, etc?

    Not trying to create a new suspect theory, but it's just something that I imagined would have had more "further reading" to go at. Most threads one pulls at in this case end up having a book or two with additional history and notes, and I'm simply interested in digging a bit deeper.

  • #2
    Originally posted by A P Tomlinson View Post
    Does anyone know of any subsequent research into who they were, which regiment they belonged to, and any potential for matching duty rosters to the time line, etc?
    I may have missed it, but I've never seen where much progress has been made since Phil Sugden looked into it.

    What Sugden was up against is that there were two John Learys in the Grenadier Guards in 1888, one from Wales and the other from Cork County, Ireland. Without knowing the suspect's age, and it doesn't seem to have been recorded anywhere, there was no way of knowing which was which. He was also going from pension records, so it was theoretically possible there may have been another John Leary.

    I think there was even less information on John Law.

    This is one of the two men named John Leary identified by Sugden in the Royal Hospital Chelse Pensioners records, but I'm not able to access the originals, though if you can find someone with an account to Fold3 they should be able to download them.


    Name John Leary
    Enlistment Age 22
    Birth Date abt 1864
    Birth Place Baldy Sourney Cork
    Enlistment Year 1886
    Attestation Paper Yes​

    "Baldy Sourney" is, I suspect, Ballyvourney, County Cork, but for reasons I do not know Sugden has the man born in Macroom, Cork, which is about 17 kilometers away.

    The second John Leary was from Glamorganshire, Wales, and was listed as having "exemplary conduct."

    Not much help, I know.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

      I may have missed it, but I've never seen where much progress has been made since Phil Sugden looked into it.

      What Sugden was up against is that there were two John Learys in the Grenadier Guards in 1888, one from Wales and the other from Cork County, Ireland. Without knowing the suspect's age, and it doesn't seem to have been recorded anywhere, there was no way of knowing which was which. He was also going from pension records, so it was theoretically possible there may have been another John Leary.

      I think there was even less information on John Law.

      This is one of the two men named John Leary identified by Sugden in the Royal Hospital Chelse Pensioners records, but I'm not able to access the originals, though if you can find someone with an account to Fold3 they should be able to download them.


      Name John Leary
      Enlistment Age 22
      Birth Date abt 1864
      Birth Place Baldy Sourney Cork
      Enlistment Year 1886
      Attestation Paper Yes​

      "Baldy Sourney" is, I suspect, Ballyvourney, County Cork, but for reasons I do not know Sugden has the man born in Macroom, Cork, which is about 17 kilometers away.

      The second John Leary was from Glamorganshire, Wales, and was listed as having "exemplary conduct."

      Not much help, I know.
      It's a start. Thank you very much.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by A P Tomlinson View Post

        It's a start. Thank you very much.

        Hi A P,

        Regarding the two men named John Leary traced by Phil Sugden...

        Gary Barnett, a talented researcher who unraveled the mysteries of Alice McKenzie's personal history (you've probably seen him over on JTR Forums) noticed your post and contacted me through a mutual correspondent, sending along the attestation papers for both men.

        This should help. And let me express my thanks to Gary for his generosity, as I've never seen them, either.

        I'll post them presently--twelve pages in all.
        Last edited by rjpalmer; 05-14-2024, 12:14 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          This is John Leary #1, who enlisted in Wales. First three pages of seven.

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          • #6
            John Leary #1. Next four pages.

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            • #7
              John Leary #2 from Cork County, Ireland.

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              • #8
                These documents are fabulous

                Thank you kindly for uploading them and special thanks to Gary for initiating the sharing of the data.


                It is really is difficult to say which; if either, of the men are the correct man.


                My instinct is telling me its the Welshman; which probably means it's the Irish one!


                Haha!



                As an aside to this...


                Has anyone considered the similarity between John Leary...and a certain Mr Cleary?


                I would be surprised if there hasn't been



                So I am going to ask the most obvious of questions...


                Could the correct John Leary be the same man as the mysterious, Mr Cleary?


                Many thanks



                RD
                "Great minds, don't think alike"

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                • #9
                  Probably no great rarity for a 19th Century soldier, but if I'm interpreting it correctly, Leary the Welshman apparently had a bout of syphilis in Dublin in 1883 that was treated with mercury, and a second bout in London in 1885 treated with an incision, poultice, and iodine (?) or something. It's difficult to deciphering that last bit.

                  Sounds unpleasant.

                  Nine counts of drunkenness in nine years, but it cuts both ways, as his last infraction was 24 September 1885.

                  Maybe he had had enough of the riotous life and took the pledge.

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                  Last edited by rjpalmer; 05-14-2024, 02:02 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rjPalmer
                    I think there was even less information on John Law.
                    I hadn't realised until you posted this that the other soldiers name was also supposedly named John.
                    When I looked for the A to Z, the only man named Law in the Grenadier Guards at the right time that I could find was a Suffolk man named William Lawes. There was a slight problem with him in that it appeared he was reprimanded for breaking out of barracks around August 88 and returned in September. I can't remember the exact details. If no one posts the the attestations papers in the meantime I'll post them when I get in later.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                      I hadn't realised until you posted this that the other soldiers name was also supposedly named John.
                      I think supposedly is a good way of putting it. I thought that that was the case, but Inspector Reid doesn't give the man's first name, so I may well be wrong. I'm not sure where I picked up that assumption.

                      For the treatment Leary No #1 received during his second bout of syphilis, it might read Iod[ine]of iron.

                      The following is from a lecture by Langston Parker, Surgeon to the Queen's Hospital, Birmingham (1852)


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                      • #12
                        Thanks RJ. There was definitely no John Law in the Grenadier Guards in 1888 anyway.
                        The only man who seemed to fit age wise and time wise is this man, William Lawes. also infected with syphilis and gonorrhoea. He left the barracks in July and returned 23 August 88 so that would rule him out as being Leary's alibi I'd guess?
                        Here are his papers anyway (to follow):



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                        • #13
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ID:	834296 William Lawes

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post


                            Hi A P,

                            Regarding the two men named John Leary traced by Phil Sugden...

                            Gary Barnett, a talented researcher who unraveled the mysteries of Alice McKenzie's personal history (you've probably seen him over on JTR Forums) noticed your post and contacted me through a mutual correspondent, sending along the attestation papers for both men.

                            This should help. And let me express my thanks to Gary for his generosity, as I've never seen them, either.

                            I'll post them presently--twelve pages in all.
                            That's incredible, thank you so much, and as I use the JtR Forums more in a "Read Only" sense, if you could pass on my thanks to those involved that would be great. I shall print these off and have a look later tonght!

                            Last edited by A P Tomlinson; 05-15-2024, 02:01 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Debra A View Post

                              I hadn't realised until you posted this that the other soldiers name was also supposedly named John.
                              When I looked for the A to Z, the only man named Law in the Grenadier Guards at the right time that I could find was a Suffolk man named William Lawes. There was a slight problem with him in that it appeared he was reprimanded for breaking out of barracks around August 88 and returned in September. I can't remember the exact details. If no one posts the the attestations papers in the meantime I'll post them when I get in later.
                              Blimey! That scene from the first series of Whitechapel where the squadie suspect breaks out of barracks suddenly seems REALLY well researched!
                              Thank you for the documents Debra, I'm going to go back and have a dig and see if I can trace back through the chain and see if I can find where "John" Laws sprang from.

                              One thing that I'm not up to speed with is the conventions used on these forms.
                              Does anyone know what a series of entries marked "No Entry" would mean?
                              Would they be the result of normal regular medical checks where nothing was wrong? Or something trivial like a headache? Or as a continuation of treatment for the previously noted condition as a sort of "ditto" remark?

                              Comment

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