Edward Buckley

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Edward was born on July 13th ( A Thursday) 1854 . It is confirmed by his Roman Catholic baptism in Pennington street and his death certificate which we are in possession of. Records of his age vary greatly in the press and he is aged by at least ten years by many . However a criminal record - two of them confirm we have the right Edward along with his listed next of kin which show he is the Edward Buckley born to Daniel Buckley and Mary Ann Elizabeth Barret ( we also have the Marriage Cert) .The age debate is discussed fully in our work . There are a number of Edward Buckleys in the area that can cause confusion particularly one born to Ellen Buckley . Jonathan

Thank you for clarifying that Johnathan.

Just for clarification from my end...

The Edward Buckley I found grew up in the minories, just west of Mitre Square

He was born in 1853 in Whitechapel

His brother Thomas John Buckley lived in Morgan Street, Mile End.

His father was called JOHN Buckley, which matches the details of the Fashion Street incident... as there is no reference to a Daniel Buckley in the press reports.

Edward's mother and one of Edward's sister's died when he was young.

John Buckley the widower turned to drink, and often frequented the public houses in and around Fashion Street.

I have Edward's birth certificate in my possession

And last but not least, my Edward and his brother Thomas John were Twins.

As long as your combined research on his antecedents, i.e. birth certificate, are concrete, then I can hold my hands up and happily admit I am wrong.
If there is however a slight chance you are mistaken,
then I would urge you to take another look at the data I have discovered as stated on this post.

Thank you for your guidance and reciprocation on this.


Regards

RD

[Jonathan Tye]

Thank you for clarifying that Johnathan.

Just for clarification from my end...

The Edward Buckley I found grew up in the minories, just west of Mitre Square

He was born in 1853 in Whitechapel

His brother Thomas John Buckley lived in Morgan Street, Mile End.

His father was called JOHN Buckley, which matches the details of the Fashion Street incident... as there is no reference to a Daniel Buckley in the press reports.

Edward's mother and one of Edward's sister's died when he was young.

John Buckley the widower turned to drink, and often frequented the public houses in and around Fashion Street.

I have Edward's birth certificate in my possession

And last but not least, my Edward and his brother Thomas John were Twins.

As long as your combined research on his antecedents, i.e. birth certificate, are concrete, then I can hold my hands up and happily admit I am wrong.
If there is however a slight chance you are mistaken,
then I would urge you to take another look at the data I have discovered as stated on this post.

Thank you for your guidance and reciprocation on this.


Regards

RD

Wow that is interesting .The only birth we found for an Edward in 1853 was born to a Bridget Buckley . I am unable to check your data as you have not produced it . Are you able to confirm that your Edward also had a brother John and a sister Mary Ann ? As upon his workhouse releases and prisons release's he used addresses in Hackney and Clapham linked to his brother John and his Sister . Thomas marriage cert states his father is Daniel as does Edwards Sisters Elizabeth and Mary Ann? Mary Ann lived in Morgan Street . What are the sources for the John buckley drinking in Fashion street ? You said in your original post that your Edward was considerably older but this one is12 months older ? Jonathan .Just as an aside - the Morgan street we are working with is off commercial road near Berner street - our records confirm mary ann buckley as being here - you seem to be referring to mile end - do you have a Thomas resident here as ive checked the census for this address when we embarked on this project . Also I cant find twins being born in Whitechapel in the july 1853 - Ive found thomas but the mother of the Edward is Bridget a record we already have found looked at. Is Bridget the woman you are referring to ? As she was unmarried ? confused Jonathan

[The Rookie Detective]

Wow that is interesting .The only birth we found for an Edward in 1853 was born to a Bridget Buckley . I am unable to check your data as you have not produced it . Are you able to confirm that your Edward also had a brother John and a sister Mary Ann ? As upon his workhouse releases and prisons release's he used addresses in Hackney and Clapham linked to his brother John and his Sister . Thomas marriage cert states his father is Daniel as does Edwards Sisters Elizabeth and Mary Ann? Mary Ann lived in Morgan Street . What are the sources for the John buckley drinking in Fashion street ? You said in your original post that your Edward was considerably older but this one is12 months older ? Jonathan .Just as an aside - the Morgan street we are working with is off commercial road near Berner street - our records confirm mary ann buckley as being here - you seem to be referring to mile end - do you have a Thomas resident here as ive checked the census for this address when we embarked on this project . Also I cant find twins being born in Whitechapel in the july 1853 - Ive found thomas but the mother of the Edward is Bridget a record we already have found looked at. Is Bridget the woman you are referring to ? As she was unmarried ? confused Jonathan

Hi Johnathan


Yes I will of course submit my data asap.

Please allow me a little time to collate what I already have; as I am also currently looking closely at 3 other "new" suspects; whom I believe are particularly interesting, with links to the WVC and even a potential link to the torso killings.

I have a lot of data, but the organization of said data has never been a strong point for me, so please bear with me while I organize my notes and data properly.

It may take me a few days because I have family commitments this weekend, but please be assured I will get my data proof to you asap.


Kindest regards


RD

[Jonathan Tye]

Hi Johnathan


Yes I will of course submit my data asap.

Please allow me a little time to collate what I already have; as I am also currently looking closely at 3 other "new" suspects; whom I believe are particularly interesting, with links to the WVC and even a potential link to the torso killings.

I have a lot of data, but the organization of said data has never been a strong point for me, so please bear with me while I organize my notes and data properly.

It may take me a few days because I have family commitments this weekend, but please be assured I will get my data proof to you asap.


Kindest regards


RD

No problem I understand how busy family life can be . Regarding what you have although Id be very interested in reading it is unlikely it connects to our Edward - The key is the Morgan street family address in Commercial Rd. But please do send any data showing these twins you have found and the cenuses you have for those Buckleys .Jurriaan and and I have extensively searched the Newspaper archives for the Buckley family I’ve never seen any stories of a John Buckley who uses the pubs in Fashion Street so we would be keen to see your evidence .

kind regards
Jonathan

please feel free to check the quality of our own research on the forums . Everything is fully sourced

[The Rookie Detective]

Johnathan, I have an Edward Buckley in 1893, aged 40, single, roman catholic, residing at the Victoria Working Men's Home (2) located at 77 Whitechapel Road (later became 177 and possibly the site of the former Bryant & May matches factory)

He is temporarily admitted to the Stepney Workhouse from the Victoria Working Men's Home (2) at 77 Whitechapel Road.

Confusingly, this is not the same building as the original Victoria Working Men's Home that stood at the corner of Wentworth Street/Commercial Street (and which George Hutchinson claimed to have stayed)

Does that match your own research?


Regards


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

No problem I understand how busy family life can be . Regarding what you have although Id be very interested in reading it is unlikely it connects to our Edward - The key is the Morgan street family address in Commercial Rd. But please do send any data showing these twins you have found and the cenuses you have for those Buckleys .Jurriaan and and I have extensively searched the Newspaper archives for the Buckley family I’ve never seen any stories of a John Buckley who uses the pubs in Fashion Street so we would be keen to see your evidence .

kind regards
Jonathan

please feel free to check the quality of our own research on the forums . Everything is fully sourced

Thank you kindly Johnathan.

I am in complete admiration and awe of your work, and I openly admit that my own research skills are nowhere near as accomplished as yours based on the extensive and concise data you have accumulated.

I feel it's just a matter of ruling my own finding out as a red herring and I'd like to thank you in advance for potentially saving me a lot of time going further down the wrong road.


I'd also like to confirm that I made a factual error in my post regarding "John" Buckley.

I have his birth name as "THOMAS" Buckley born circa 1824/1825 in Cork, Ireland.

John Buckley was Edward Buckley's Grandfather and NOT his father.

it was Thomas (not John) who frequented public houses around Fashion Street


I have Edward Buckley's parents as...

Thomas Buckley (a Tailor)
and
Jane Isabella Brown

They married in 1846, Jane was a minor.

Edward and Thomas John were twins and they had a younger sister called Sarah who was born in 1860.

Sarah died in 1886 aged 25

Jane Isabella Buckley (nee Brown) died in early 1864 when the twins were only 10.



Does any of this relate to any data you have conclusively dismissed as a red herring?

If you have already ruled out the above data regarding Thomas and Jane (Edward's parents) then I can cease my own findings.


Based on your research, it's very apparent that my data is NOT the same Edward Buckley.

The question is, who was the Edward Buckley I have found?

I am hoping you can tell me that you have already looked at Thomas Buckley and Jane Isabelle Brown and confirm conclusively that I am wrong and have the wrong Buckley family entirely.


RD

[Jonathan Tye]

Thank you kindly Johnathan.

I am in complete admiration and awe of your work, and I openly admit that my own research skills are nowhere near as accomplished as yours based on the extensive and concise data you have accumulated.

I feel it's just a matter of ruling my own finding out as a red herring and I'd like to thank you in advance for potentially saving me a lot of time going further down the wrong road.


I'd also like to confirm that I made a factual error in my post regarding "John" Buckley.

I have his birth name as "THOMAS" Buckley born circa 1824/1825 in Cork, Ireland.

John Buckley was Edward Buckley's Grandfather and NOT his father.

it was Thomas (not John) who frequented public houses around Fashion Street


I have Edward Buckley's parents as...

Thomas Buckley (a Tailor)
and
Jane Isabella Brown

They married in 1846, Jane was a minor.

Edward and Thomas John were twins and they had a younger sister called Sarah who was born in 1860.

Sarah died in 1886 aged 25

Jane Isabella Buckley (nee Brown) died in early 1864 when the twins were only 10.



Does any of this relate to any data you have conclusively dismissed as a red herring?

If you have already ruled out the above data regarding Thomas and Jane (Edward's parents) then I can cease my own findings.


Based on your research, it's very apparent that my data is NOT the same Edward Buckley.

The question is, who was the Edward Buckley I have found?

I am hoping you can tell me that you have already looked at Thomas Buckley and Jane Isabelle Brown and confirm conclusively that I am wrong and have the wrong Buckley family entirely.


RD

Hi RD I have found the Thomas you are referring too with the sister sara born in 1860 and the parents Thomas as tailor and wife Jane . However none of these census are geographically near our Buckley's and no Edward is referred to in the entries . So it would be a case that we are discussing a different Edward from the man we have biographically detailed. This should not in anyway deter you from research it is the nature of the beast - keep digging ! Re the entry you have for 177 Whitechapel this was the predecessor and registered office of the Victoria Working Mans Home of George Hutchinson fame. This entry is indeed included in our research but a note of caution . We have another Edward Buckley a married and then widowed docker who used this establishment until his death from TB . So it is a possible the age and religion do match . What we are interested in is looking as to where may have been at the end of 1888 . We can trace him till late August 1888 and then from April 1889 where he is arrested with his brother Thomas for assaulting police. Those few months are of interest . Wass he incarcerated outside London ? was he on the road and can we find him in the Newspapers? Edward had in excess of 40 convictions (known ) in his lifetime and used many aliases - so that's where the hunt progresses. Jonathan

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD I have found the Thomas you are referring too with the sister sara born in 1860 and the parents Thomas as tailor and wife Jane . However none of these census are geographically near our Buckley's and no Edward is referred to in the entries . So it would be a case that we are discussing a different Edward from the man we have biographically detailed. This should not in anyway deter you from research it is the nature of the beast - keep digging ! Re the entry you have for 177 Whitechapel this was the predecessor and registered office of the Victoria Working Mans Home of George Hutchinson fame. This entry is indeed included in our research but a note of caution . We have another Edward Buckley a married and then widowed docker who used this establishment until his death from TB . So it is a possible the age and religion do match . What we are interested in is looking as to where may have been at the end of 1888 . We can trace him till late August 1888 and then from April 1889 where he is arrested with his brother Thomas for assaulting police. Those few months are of interest . Wass he incarcerated outside London ? was he on the road and can we find him in the Newspapers? Edward had in excess of 40 convictions (known ) in his lifetime and used many aliases - so that's where the hunt progresses. Jonathan

Thank you kindly for taking the time to confirm those details and I appreciate your feedback.

It has saved me so much time and I can now focus my attentions on other areas.

Just as an aside,
I have Edward, Cigar Maker, in the 1911 census, lodging at 28 Thrawl Street. His age would make him born circa 1947, but from my humble experience, the ages given on census returns should be taken with a pinch of salt.

There's also an Edward Buckley lodging in Duval Street (formerly Dorset St) in the 1921 census. Again his age is not correct, but I found the proximity to Miller's Court (demolished in 1920) rather interesting.

If either of these are the correct Edward Buckley, it would at least show he stayed in the area of the WC murders.


RD

[Jonathan Tye]

Thank you kindly for taking the time to confirm those details and I appreciate your feedback.

It has saved me so much time and I can now focus my attentions on other areas.

Just as an aside,
I have Edward, Cigar Maker, in the 1911 census, lodging at 28 Thrawl Street. His age would make him born circa 1947, but from my humble experience, the ages given on census returns should be taken with a pinch of salt.

There's also an Edward Buckley lodging in Duval Street (formerly Dorset St) in the 1921 census. Again his age is not correct, but I found the proximity to Miller's Court (demolished in 1920) rather interesting.

If either of these are the correct Edward Buckley, it would at least show he stayed in the area of the WC murders.


RD

Yes its the right Edward and all documented in the research on the Forums , in our two articles and in my presentation and in my interview with Richard Jones .

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi RD I have found the Thomas you are referring too with the sister sara born in 1860 and the parents Thomas as tailor and wife Jane . However none of these census are geographically near our Buckley's and no Edward is referred to in the entries . So it would be a case that we are discussing a different Edward from the man we have biographically detailed. This should not in anyway deter you from research it is the nature of the beast - keep digging ! Re the entry you have for 177 Whitechapel this was the predecessor and registered office of the Victoria Working Mans Home of George Hutchinson fame. This entry is indeed included in our research but a note of caution . We have another Edward Buckley a married and then widowed docker who used this establishment until his death from TB . So it is a possible the age and religion do match . What we are interested in is looking as to where may have been at the end of 1888 . We can trace him till late August 1888 and then from April 1889 where he is arrested with his brother Thomas for assaulting police. Those few months are of interest . Wass he incarcerated outside London ? was he on the road and can we find him in the Newspapers? Edward had in excess of 40 convictions (known ) in his lifetime and used many aliases - so that's where the hunt progresses. Jonathan

There is one rather tantalizing option that could relate to Edward; and was the initial piece of data I found to spark my interest in him a few months ago.

There's another Buckley who has been discussed on here and in the forums, namely Henry Buckley.

We know that Edward used various aliases, including the name Henry.


What's interesting is that Henry Buckley became known for an incident that occurred in late 1888, the exact time to which you are referring.

Multiple newspaper accounts list 'Henry' Buckley as the perpetrator, but a handful list his name as 'Edward.'

Could this be your missing link?...




The attack on Patrick Manning has been discussed many times...but I find it astonishing how no one has managed to make the link before now.

The question is, even though there were scores of newspapers that listed the attacker's name as Henry, why did a few state his name as Edward?


If this is the same man, then it places Edward in Dorset Street in late 1888.

Stabbing a man with a knife with intent to kill

Residing at 26 Dorset Street, the exact same address as Miller's Court.


It may not be the same man, but if it is indeed Edward, then that's the missing link right here.


And to add a little extra detail...when Edward was incarcerated and sent to Coldbath Fields prison in Clerkenwell (the site of the Mount Pleasant post office HQ), he was sentenced within a few days of a certain Daniel Sullivan.

Daniel Sullivan was one of 2 notorious brothers.

The older brother Jeremiah Sullivan made Edward Buckley look like a Boy Scout in terms of his level of violence; he beat both his parents up in the street, savagely stabbed a prostitute in the face and attacked various other people over the years.

Jeremiah was in prison during the WC murders, but his brother Daniel, who served time WITH Edward Buckley at Coldbath Fields, he was the very same Daniel Sullivan who was subsequently employed by Crossingham at 35 Dorset St.

The same Abode of Annie Chapman

Daniel Sullivan is proven to have attempted to cover up the details of the murder of Mary Ann Austin in May 1901, who was slain in the lodging house at 35 Dorset St.

He is also a notable person of interest in the ripper murders.


Did Daniel Sullivan and Edward Buckley form a connection whilst in prison together?


And did Edward Buckley work for the powerful men of Dorset St; McCarthy and Crossingham?


Does this connect Edward to the ripper murders?



Food for thought



RD

[Jonathan Tye]

There is one rather tantalizing option that could relate to Edward; and was the initial piece of data I found to spark my interest in him a few months ago.

There's another Buckley who has been discussed on here and in the forums, namely Henry Buckley.

We know that Edward used various aliases, including the name Henry.


What's interesting is that Henry Buckley became known for an incident that occurred in late 1888, the exact time to which you are referring.

Multiple newspaper accounts list 'Henry' Buckley as the perpetrator, but a handful list his name as 'Edward.'

Could this be your missing link?...




The attack on Patrick Manning has been discussed many times...but I find it astonishing how no one has managed to make the link before now.

The question is, even though there were scores of newspapers that listed the attacker's name as Henry, why did a few state his name as Edward?


If this is the same man, then it places Edward in Dorset Street in late 1888.

Stabbing a man with a knife with intent to kill

Residing at 26 Dorset Street, the exact same address as Miller's Court.


It may not be the same man, but if it is indeed Edward, then that's the missing link right here.


And to add a little extra detail...when Edward was incarcerated and sent to Coldbath Fields prison in Clerkenwell (the site of the Mount Pleasant post office HQ), he was sentenced within a few days of a certain Daniel Sullivan.

Daniel Sullivan was one of 2 notorious brothers.

The older brother Jeremiah Sullivan made Edward Buckley look like a Boy Scout in terms of his level of violence; he beat both his parents up in the street, savagely stabbed a prostitute in the face and attacked various other people over the years.

Jeremiah was in prison during the WC murders, but his brother Daniel, who served time WITH Edward Buckley at Coldbath Fields, he was the very same Daniel Sullivan who was subsequently employed by Crossingham at 35 Dorset St.

The same Abode of Annie Chapman

Daniel Sullivan is proven to have attempted to cover up the details of the murder of Mary Ann Austin in May 1901, who was slain in the lodging house at 35 Dorset St.

He is also a notable person of interest in the ripper murders.


Did Daniel Sullivan and Edward Buckley form a connection whilst in prison together?


And did Edward Buckley work for the powerful men of Dorset St; McCarthy and Crossingham?


Does this connect Edward to the ripper murders?



Food for thought



RD

This is more like it RD . The Henry Buckley story is fascinating isn't it ? In its own right its a interesting lead . Re Edward - only one paper uses that name . The actual Henry or Harry Buckley is quite well documented so I do not think this is Edward or the back story we know of the Henry working for Mccarthy. Could they be related ? possibly but that would require a lot more research on the family network of Daniel Buckley . The sullivans are an interesting brood I have posted work on Jeremiah Sullivan .If you have verifiable evidence that Edward B and Daniel S were indeed in prison at the same time that would be an interesting lead . Without evidence we cannot know if there's any connection to the mccarthys other than a shared Irish heritage . At present Edwards interest for me is related too the nature of the attacks of Frances Jones , his modus operandi when carryout a robbery and the geography. If we find a conviction which is shared with sullivan that would interesting . However again do to the common nature of the irish names that dominated the area - sullivan ,mcarty ,mcarthy ,donavon - we must be cautious - Jonathan

[The Rookie Detective]

This is more like it RD . The Henry Buckley story is fascinating isn't it ? In its own right its a interesting lead . Re Edward - only one paper uses that name . The actual Henry or Harry Buckley is quite well documented so I do not think this is Edward or the back story we know of the Henry working for Mccarthy. Could they be related ? possibly but that would require a lot more research on the family network of Daniel Buckley . The sullivans are an interesting brood I have posted work on Jeremiah Sullivan .If you have verifiable evidence that Edward B and Daniel S were indeed in prison at the same time that would be an interesting lead . Without evidence we cannot know if there's any connection to the mccarthys other than a shared Irish heritage . At present Edwards interest for me is related too the nature of the attacks of Frances Jones , his modus operandi when carryout a robbery and the geography. If we find a conviction which is shared with sullivan that would interesting . However again do to the common nature of the irish names that dominated the area - sullivan ,mcarty ,mcarthy ,donavon - we must be cautious - Jonathan

Here's the proof that Daniel Sullivan and Edward Buckley went to Coldbath Fields at the same time.

Daniel only served 4 months, but they still would have been there at the same time.


In fact, Edward Buckley is number 33...

and on the very next page of the very same book, Daniel and Jeremiah are listed as numbers 37 and 38 respectively...









That forms a link between Buckley and Sullivan.


There's also a newspaper report that I will upload that has them in the same paragraph.



RD

[Jonathan Tye]

Here's the proof that Daniel Sullivan and Edward Buckley went to Coldbath Fields at the same time.

Daniel only served 4 months, but they still would have been there at the same time.


In fact, Edward Buckley is number 33...

and on the very next page of the very same book, Daniel and Jeremiah are listed as numbers 37 and 38 respectively...









That forms a link between Buckley and Sullivan.


There's also a newspaper report that I will upload that has them in the same paragraph.



RD

I love this . Great work and worth exploring - Jonathan - would be worth you posting this on the forums thread to under the link sent by Jurriaan

[The Rookie Detective]

I love this . Great work and worth exploring - Jonathan - would be worth you posting this on the forums thread to under the link sent by Jurriaan

I completely agree Johnathan.

The data absolutely needs to be shared on the JTR Forum.

For some reason, I am still not a member of the JTR Forum.

I did request a while back, but received no reply from the admin.

I will try again, as I am aware of the advanced discussions that take place on the JTR Forum, and the incredibly brilliant Debra, whose research IMO is outstanding and unrivaled...and quite frankly, I would love a place at that particular table.


Please get that link uploaded on the Forums, because as far as I'm concerned, it helps to support the case and drive it forward in a progressive and positive way.

I believe the link between your person of interest, Edward Buckley, and Daniel Sullivan, is something that warrants closer inspection, analysis and discussion.


Regards

RD


RD

[The Rookie Detective]

There's also another potentially interesting point regarding the place to which Edward Buckley was sent; Coldbath Fields.

At the time Edward was sent there, the prison had a particular type of controversial reform method called...

"The Silent System"

This system was implemented back in the late 1860's and was intended to reform the prisoners and show them the error of their ways through personal reflection.

In practical terms, the Silent System meant that prisoners had to carry out mundane repetitive tasks...

In COMPLETE silence.


Now I wonder if this particular system had implications with regard to the ripper murders.


What is one constant factor that is ever present when we think about the murders?...that they were all committed in COMPLETE SILENCE.


No one has ever been able to explain how the killer could have murdered and mutilated in relative silence, unheard and unseen.

What if the ripper had served time in the Coldbath Fields prison prior to the murders?

There were only 2 prisons that operated the "Silent" system, Coldbath Fields and another in Tothill.

I believe that the reason why JTR was able to commit the mutilations unheard by witnesses within close proximity, is because he was a prisoner who served time in Coldbath Fields Prison.

Could the months that Edward Buckley, and Daniel Sullivan, have spent in the prison, have given them the "training" to commit their crimes in silence?

And could the Ripper have learned to kill in silence because he had trained to be silent during his so-called reform period spent in the Coldbath Fields prison?


Thought please?



RD