Evidence to prove a suspect valid

[Tom_Wescott]

Regarding this much-discussed 'choke hold'. What was practiced in the East End wasn't any sort of martial arts. It was called garroting and was practiced around Flower and Dean Street and pretty much all over the East End. I suspect this method may have been used on Martha Tabram. Possibly Stride and even other victims. Supposedly it required a tall man with skill at quickly rendering a person unconscious without actually hurting them.

I'm copying and pasting this from my book:


Arthur Harding, who was born into the Brick Lane neighborhood in the late Victorian period and spent much of his life there among the criminal classes, described just such a method of subduing a victim:

‘A lot of garrotting [sic] went on. Five years and a bashing you got for it – eighteen strokes with the cat. That was the penalty. But a lot of it still went on, by Flowery Dean Street (Flower & Dean Street), and in the pubs at the back of Leman Street, and all down the Highway. Even at the ‘Fleur de Lis’ in Elder Street I’ve known it done. Not in Bethnal Green. I’ve never known it done in Bethnal Green. You had to be tall to do it. You would come up to a man from behind, put your arms round his throat, with your fists on his throttle. If it went on for more than a few seconds he would choke, so you had to be skilled. Some of them had a girl working for them – she would get a man well boozed, mix his drinks for him and they’d get him while he was drunk.’


Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom

Stride seemed very much at ease with the suspect as described by Best, Gardener, and Marshall, it's possible that Stride was familiar with this man. The thing is, would the murderer of Chapman, and Nichols, be audacious enough to openly court Stride in full view of several witnesses? Bear in mind though, It is not unknown for other serial killers to have displayed such behaviour. The sociopath's indifference to danger also comes to mind.

Hi Obsy. The man Best and Gardner saw didn't kill Stride. So there was no reason for them not to duck out of the rain for a pint.


Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mklhawley]

I accept that people sincerely believe this to be true, and may have even experienced it and this is their memory, but physiologically what you describe is impossible. 10 seconds is possible. Not three.

I have had this hold placed on me. I have had the police choke hold placed on me by a cop who was seriously trying to subdue me (long story). I have had martial arts instructors do this to me (even a judo instructor). I have even had the baton choke hold put on me. Some in the name of research, twice in actual struggles, some because my friends came home from class with cool tricks and wanted to try them on their friends.

Nobody goes down that fast. And here's why. If you expel all the breath in your lungs and hold it, most people must inhale 5 to 10 seconds later. And your need to inhale comes long before you even get dizzy, much less grey out. The oxygenated blood trapped in your head lasts about 20 seconds give or take. So it isn't lack of oxygen. And it actually takes a minute or more for someone to choke to unconsciousness due to airway blockage. So clearly it isn't that. And no choke hold stops all blood from reaching the brain. It just cuts off the major suppliers.

The only thing that causes the symptoms you describe, and those described in the letter produced by Mike is either a TIA (a mini stroke) or time contraction caused by experiencing a terrifying event. And both are real things. TIAs and Vagus nerve over excitation are why choke holds are banned in many martial arts competitions, and why the cops are not allowed to use them an more in many states. People do drop dead from that. But not a lot of people. And it's an effect that cannot be counted on by any attacker, who has no idea what the circulatory condition of his victim is. As for time contraction, well anytime you here a crime victim say "It all happened so fast..." Some things happen fast, but never as quickly as people perceive them. Some people also get time expansion. People who have car wrecks experience that before the wreck.

Nothing about any choke hold prevents a person from moving their arms and legs. If the attacker is sufficiently strong and heavy it will prevent them from going anywhere, maybe even keep their feet off the ground, but not from kicking or trying to pry the arm off their throat. The author of the letter certainly had nothing preventing him from moving in those ways. Any hold or condition that would cause paralysis would render him insensible. And he would have no memory of actually being robbed. And a bar hold would keep him from shouting, but would not put pressure on his arteries, so he would not have any ischemic symptoms. He might have passed out after a minute or so, but nothing prevented him fighting. Except of course fear. He froze. It's perfectly natural. Not something most men admit to even now, much less Victorian gentlemen, but he froze.

Hi Errata,

I've been a black belt in judo for over 20 years, and I married a nationally-rated judoka (she's tough as nails!). I'm also a 6th degree black belt in aikido. I actually have some cool aikido videos online (http://www.mythicdragonpublishing.com/Our_Authors.html) or this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uItQzVMQkNY ). I apologize for sounding like I'm bragging, but I've been choked so fast that I couldn't tap out, ...and yes, it's embarrassing to wet your gi in front of a crowd!

Being choked out so fast is a reality, but even if you're fighting it for seconds, once the choke is secure, making any loud noise is physically impossible. Honestly. I'm not trying to be argumentative.

Sincerely,

Mike

[mklhawley]

I'm sure I recall reading about someone involved in the case who prostituted themselves in someway to a Japanese... possibly a judoka.

Oh you know more than you're saying, knowing the term judoka!

[Michael W Richards]

Is there anything that you don't know? Apart from the identity ok Jack The Ripper that is.

You posted earlier that Stride was not chocked out because she would have struggled, and soiled her dress in the process, now you are saying the man in the letter froze. Could Stride not have froze?

Stride was indeed choked by virtue of the scarf evidence, but that need not have been to subdue the woman, he may have just caught hold of her scarf as she turned her back, to pull her back into the space behind the open gate.

Blackwell said that he believed that her attack may have started with the scarf pull and the evidence suggests that it may have ended within 2 seconds, as its possible she was cut "while falling". So...not choked for silence, but as a by product of the assailants method of grabbing her.

That isnt the case with Polly or Annie, both were on the ground when cut, and both were choked....likely with the intention of getting them on the ground semi or fully unconscious.

cheers

[Observer]

I accept that people sincerely believe this to be true, and may have even experienced it and this is their memory, but physiologically what you describe is impossible. 10 seconds is possible. Not three.

I have had this hold placed on me. I have had the police choke hold placed on me by a cop who was seriously trying to subdue me (long story). I have had martial arts instructors do this to me (even a judo instructor). I have even had the baton choke hold put on me. Some in the name of research, twice in actual struggles, some because my friends came home from class with cool tricks and wanted to try them on their friends.

Nobody goes down that fast. And here's why. If you expel all the breath in your lungs and hold it, most people must inhale 5 to 10 seconds later. And your need to inhale comes long before you even get dizzy, much less grey out. The oxygenated blood trapped in your head lasts about 20 seconds give or take. So it isn't lack of oxygen. And it actually takes a minute or more for someone to choke to unconsciousness due to airway blockage. So clearly it isn't that. And no choke hold stops all blood from reaching the brain. It just cuts off the major suppliers.

The only thing that causes the symptoms you describe, and those described in the letter produced by Mike is either a TIA (a mini stroke) or time contraction caused by experiencing a terrifying event. And both are real things. TIAs and Vagus nerve over excitation are why choke holds are banned in many martial arts competitions, and why the cops are not allowed to use them an more in many states. People do drop dead from that. But not a lot of people. And it's an effect that cannot be counted on by any attacker, who has no idea what the circulatory condition of his victim is. As for time contraction, well anytime you here a crime victim say "It all happened so fast..." Some things happen fast, but never as quickly as people perceive them. Some people also get time expansion. People who have car wrecks experience that before the wreck.

Nothing about any choke hold prevents a person from moving their arms and legs. If the attacker is sufficiently strong and heavy it will prevent them from going anywhere, maybe even keep their feet off the ground, but not from kicking or trying to pry the arm off their throat. The author of the letter certainly had nothing preventing him from moving in those ways. Any hold or condition that would cause paralysis would render him insensible. And he would have no memory of actually being robbed. And a bar hold would keep him from shouting, but would not put pressure on his arteries, so he would not have any ischemic symptoms. He might have passed out after a minute or so, but nothing prevented him fighting. Except of course fear. He froze. It's perfectly natural. Not something most men admit to even now, much less Victorian gentlemen, but he froze.

Is there anything that you don't know? Apart from the identity of Jack The Ripper that is.

You posted earlier that Stride was not chocked out because she would have struggled, and soiled her dress in the process, now you are saying the man in the letter froze. Could Stride not have froze?

[lynn cates]

black eye

Hello Errata. Thanks.

Yes, I see what you mean. Of course, my lad had a black eye when taken into custody.

Defensive?

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

In judo, we call this type of choke hadaka jime, and it can be applied in less than three seconds. Once applied, one immediately 'greys out'. Speaking is impossible.

Sincerely,

Mike

I accept that people sincerely believe this to be true, and may have even experienced it and this is their memory, but physiologically what you describe is impossible. 10 seconds is possible. Not three.

I have had this hold placed on me. I have had the police choke hold placed on me by a cop who was seriously trying to subdue me (long story). I have had martial arts instructors do this to me (even a judo instructor). I have even had the baton choke hold put on me. Some in the name of research, twice in actual struggles, some because my friends came home from class with cool tricks and wanted to try them on their friends.

Nobody goes down that fast. And here's why. If you expel all the breath in your lungs and hold it, most people must inhale 5 to 10 seconds later. And your need to inhale comes long before you even get dizzy, much less grey out. The oxygenated blood trapped in your head lasts about 20 seconds give or take. So it isn't lack of oxygen. And it actually takes a minute or more for someone to choke to unconsciousness due to airway blockage. So clearly it isn't that. And no choke hold stops all blood from reaching the brain. It just cuts off the major suppliers.

The only thing that causes the symptoms you describe, and those described in the letter produced by Mike is either a TIA (a mini stroke) or time contraction caused by experiencing a terrifying event. And both are real things. TIAs and Vagus nerve over excitation are why choke holds are banned in many martial arts competitions, and why the cops are not allowed to use them an more in many states. People do drop dead from that. But not a lot of people. And it's an effect that cannot be counted on by any attacker, who has no idea what the circulatory condition of his victim is. As for time contraction, well anytime you here a crime victim say "It all happened so fast..." Some things happen fast, but never as quickly as people perceive them. Some people also get time expansion. People who have car wrecks experience that before the wreck.

Nothing about any choke hold prevents a person from moving their arms and legs. If the attacker is sufficiently strong and heavy it will prevent them from going anywhere, maybe even keep their feet off the ground, but not from kicking or trying to pry the arm off their throat. The author of the letter certainly had nothing preventing him from moving in those ways. Any hold or condition that would cause paralysis would render him insensible. And he would have no memory of actually being robbed. And a bar hold would keep him from shouting, but would not put pressure on his arteries, so he would not have any ischemic symptoms. He might have passed out after a minute or so, but nothing prevented him fighting. Except of course fear. He froze. It's perfectly natural. Not something most men admit to even now, much less Victorian gentlemen, but he froze.

[Lechmere]

I'm sure I recall reading about someone involved in the case who prostituted themselves in someway to a Japanese... possibly a judoka.

[Errata]

Hello Errata. Thanks.

"If any of these women had fought, they would likely have been bloodied and bruised."

Polly and Annie WERE bruised.

Cheers.
LC

Not defensively. Not even in a manner that their attacker would have defended himself if they struck him. They have perimortem bruising (and Chapman has some suspicious scratches) from someone gripping their jaw tightly. Bruising that can occur even after death. Freshly dead bruises. Old dead does not.

The scratches under Chapman's ear may correspond to the fight she was in, or may have come from the attack. Or even from scratching herself if she had long nails and a persistent itch. But in any case, not from defending herself, nor from being defended against.

[Observer]

Hi Mike

Thanks for that.

Regards

Observer

[mklhawley]

From The Times 1851

"Sir, I trust you will kindly afford me your valuable assistance towards placing that portion of the public residing in the suburban districts of London on their guard.

On Saturday 1st inst, when returning home at night, I was, without any warning, suddenly seized from behind by someone, who, placing the bend of his arm to my throat, and then clasping his right wrist with his left hand, thereby forming a powerful lever, succeeded in effectually strangling me for a time, and rendering me incapable of moving or even calling for assistance, although there were plenty at hand, whilst a second man easily rifled me of all he could find. I was then violently thrown on the ground, or rather I found myself lying there. When I came to my senses two passengers, one a neighbour, raised me up, when we were immediately joined by a policeman and by two more in less than a minute; but as I could not express myself coherently at first, the men had plenty of time to escape."

He then goes on to say that should this type of robbery,( i.e. garrotting,) have been perpetrated upon an elderly person, or one who was infirm, then the result may well have ended in death. So it seems as if the individual who wrote this letter was a relatively fit and young man.

I suggest Stride, in comparison, would have been very easily dealt with, should her assailant have been practised in the art of garrotting.

Also


I quote the letter writer once more.

"succeeded in effectually strangling me for a time, and rendering me incapable of moving"

In judo, we call this type of choke hadaka jime, and it can be applied in less than three seconds. Once applied, one immediately 'greys out'. Speaking is impossible.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Observer]

I don't think she was choked out. One of the peculiarities of a choke hold is that since it puts pressure on the side of the neck, the voicebox is relatively unaffected. She definitely would have gotten out at least one good scream before losing consciousness. And even 10 seconds of fighting would have resulted in quite a bit of mud splashed up her dress. And if it was a tissue, and we know it was open, as soon as she dropped it all the cachous would have scattered.

It's like these women were hypnotized. Like they welcomed the knife. And I have never been able to explain that.

From The Times 1851

"Sir, I trust you will kindly afford me your valuable assistance towards placing that portion of the public residing in the suburban districts of London on their guard.

On Saturday 1st inst, when returning home at night, I was, without any warning, suddenly seized from behind by someone, who, placing the bend of his arm to my throat, and then clasping his right wrist with his left hand, thereby forming a powerful lever, succeeded in effectually strangling me for a time, and rendering me incapable of moving or even calling for assistance, although there were plenty at hand, whilst a second man easily rifled me of all he could find. I was then violently thrown on the ground, or rather I found myself lying there. When I came to my senses two passengers, one a neighbour, raised me up, when we were immediately joined by a policeman and by two more in less than a minute; but as I could not express myself coherently at first, the men had plenty of time to escape."

He then goes on to say that should this type of robbery,( i.e. garrotting,) have been perpetrated upon an elderly person, or one who was infirm, then the result may well have ended in death. So it seems as if the individual who wrote this letter was a relatively fit and young man.

I suggest Stride, in comparison, would have been very easily dealt with, should her assailant have been practised in the art of garrotting.

Also

And even 10 seconds of fighting would have resulted in quite a bit of mud splashed up her dress.

I quote the letter writer once more.

"succeeded in effectually strangling me for a time, and rendering me incapable of moving"

[GUT]

G'Day Errata

A picture of a plane in a living room is one thing. A picture of a woman murdered 130 ish years ago in a living room is something else entirely. I think my fiance would object.

Talk about fussy fiancee's.

[lynn cates]

bruising

Hello Errata. Thanks.

"If any of these women had fought, they would likely have been bloodied and bruised."

Polly and Annie WERE bruised.

Cheers.
LC