Evidence to prove a suspect valid

[Observer]

Just to add, regarding the knife threat

With knife held to her throat.

"One word out of you, and I'll cut your throat, now get on the ground"

[Observer]

Absolutely she could have. I think she would still drop the bag, but yes, she absolutely could have been in a literal rictus of fear.

Well that's it, he choked her, she froze, and it was the killer who placed the cachous in her hand. But on a more serious note

So if Stride is a Ripper victim, he is using some other method of controlling her.

The fear of the knife would have been enough to control her, or any of the other victims for that matter. With a knife held to her throat, I'd imagine this threat would be enough to shut her up, and also enough to force her to the ground.

I still think she was choked out though

Sorry to hear about you bipolar disorder.

Regards

Observer

[GUT]

G'Day Tom

Might be a long wait, less you start it yourself.

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom is absolutely right.

Now there's a thread title waiting to happen.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mklhawley]

I don't think you are being argumentative. I simply think that the choke hold took a little longer than your perception of it. I think it probably takes 10 seconds. In the actual choke hold the difference between 3 and 10 seconds is probably totally besides the point. In a competition situation in which you have been working hard, your blood gets super oxygenated, but also moves faster because your heart rate is up. I think a choke hold after exertion probably takes a little less time than if you were just standing there. But the only way you get choked out in three seconds is because pressure on the vagus nerve stops your heart or a TIA. Which is rare. Most people don't survive that. If that is whats happening to you, I strongly encourage you to stop it. Like, seriously.

But let me ask you this. When put in a choke hold, do you go limp? Do you completely lose the ability to move your arms and legs? I never have. Even three seconds of fighting is enough to get marked, or mark someone else. 10 seconds feels like the beating of a lifetime when someone is struggling to get free of you.

I have always been able to scream when in a choke hold. Now I can see there might be a difference between men and women in this regard. Men have a more prominent adams apple, a person doesn't have to press as hard to shove it against the larynx. Now I won't say I've ever let out a scream that sounded like a good old fashioned Hollywood scream. It sounds more like someone savaging a duck. But it's loud enough to get attention.

But there are absolutely choke holds that do not allow someone to scream. The one described in the article by Tom is a perfect example. But that takes longer to actually choke someone out since it works by blocking the airway, not the arteries. Which means longer for the victim to fight.

There is no sign that Stride was choked. Her eyes and tongue weren't protruding, the are no bruises on her neck, nothing was broken in the throat. And being choked through ischemia rather than asphyxiation means that as soon as a person is lying down, their pressure resumes to normal. These people are typically upright again in a few seconds. Stride could very well have woken up to someone cutting her throat, or even with it already done. But she would have clutched at the wound, and she didn't. She wound have tried to get away and she didn't. There is no way choking her out keeps her out long enough for her to bleed to death. That takes a couple of minutes. I can't imagine just lying there perfectly still waiting to die.

Hi Errata,

Tom is absolutely right. Anytime anyone passes out from a choke, their eyes are actually closed and the tongue is in the mouth, at least on the judo mats. Most of the time, the person taps out in order not to pass out.

Great question about how ones body responds during the choke. In judo, we don't apply a choke standing; it's during grappling, or what we call newaza. While the arms are involved with applying the choke, the legs are involved with keeping their arms and legs at bay. It's amazingly effective. Also, as the choke is in, there's so much pressure and pain for the person that it overwhelms their senses and their only goal in life is to try and pry the arm off. Even if they try and strike, it has zero weight behind it, but then there's only seconds.

In aikido, we apply standing chokes, and before one is applied, the person must be off their base. The person being choked will be tipped back at about 45 degrees, so they will not be able to use their legs (way off balance). Their hands will go immediately to the choker's arm in order to pry it off (fat chance). While applying the choke, our heads are tucked so any possibility of strikes just hit the top of your head.

I'd imagine if a man used the bare arm choke on women like this, not only would he wrap his arm around them, he'd lift her up and back, as well, stretching and arching the woman's back. She would find it difficult to hit the face if he choked them from his side position.

A deep bare arm choke, where the crotch of the elbow is on the adam's apple, will not only stop the blood supply to the brain, it'll close off the wind pipe from the sides (not directly on the adam's apple). The best I hear is gurgling.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Errata]

Stride was on the ground, her features were placid, and she did not lie down voluntarily, so it must be considered that she was subdued in some way.
Drugs and chemical compounds do not appear to have been involved, neither was there evidence of a physical blow to the head sufficient to knock her out.

The scarf was noted as pulled tight, and a broad scarf just may not bruise or mark the skin as easy as a narrow thin cord, so if we accept that she didn't lie down voluntarily, then the scarf is the most likely tool used in rendering her unconscious.
And, a scarf pulled tight would just as easily compress the arteries and the larynx restricting both blood flow and oxygen to the brain, this together has the ability to render someone unconscious rapidly.

This does not eliminate the possibility that she had time for one 'scream', but the singing in the club may have drowned that out.

But constriction leaves marks too. Even if the classic ligature marks aren't present, you get marks and even abrasions where the edges of the fabric bite into the skin. And she would have been killed almost immediately after, so no time for the marks to fade. And then the damn cachous.

But she was wearing a silk scarf, which makes an enormous difference when compared to someone strangled with a cord, or even a cotton or wool scarf. I could write a paper on why the silk scarf changes everything.

[Wickerman]

The man Best and Gardner saw didn't kill Stride.

Seeing as how nobody knows who killed Stride.....

[Wickerman]

Stride was on the ground, her features were placid, and she did not lie down voluntarily, so it must be considered that she was subdued in some way.
Drugs and chemical compounds do not appear to have been involved, neither was there evidence of a physical blow to the head sufficient to knock her out.

The scarf was noted as pulled tight, and a broad scarf just may not bruise or mark the skin as easy as a narrow thin cord, so if we accept that she didn't lie down voluntarily, then the scarf is the most likely tool used in rendering her unconscious.
And, a scarf pulled tight would just as easily compress the arteries and the larynx restricting both blood flow and oxygen to the brain, this together has the ability to render someone unconscious rapidly.

This does not eliminate the possibility that she had time for one 'scream', but the singing in the club may have drowned that out.

[Wickerman]

What exactly is your question, Wick? Yes, garroting had been around for some time before 1888 and for some time after. My point is that what was being described as a martial arts choke hold was quite common in the very neighborhod in which Tabram and the others were murdered, but was not martial arts. It was a street hood thing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Yes, it was largely a gang-related activity, but employed by men, against men.
I was interested in the date for your quote.

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm sure I recall reading about someone involved in the case who prostituted themselves in someway to a Japanese... possibly a judoka.

I could be wrong, but the only instance of this I can recall is one of Le Grand's prostitutes who talked about one of her (I believe) Japanese customers who asked her to move off with him. So this was in London, and around the right time, but not related to the Ripper case. If this isn't what you're recalling, I'd love to hear about it if you remember.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Errata,

People who are choked to unconsciousness don't have eyes and tongue bulging out. I don't think anyone is suggesting Stride was choked to death.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

I've been a black belt in judo for over 20 years, and I married a nationally-rated judoka (she's tough as nails!). I'm also a 6th degree black belt in aikido. I actually have some cool aikido videos online (http://www.mythicdragonpublishing.com/Our_Authors.html) or this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uItQzVMQkNY ). I apologize for sounding like I'm bragging, but I've been choked so fast that I couldn't tap out, ...and yes, it's embarrassing to wet your gi in front of a crowd!

Being choked out so fast is a reality, but even if you're fighting it for seconds, once the choke is secure, making any loud noise is physically impossible. Honestly. I'm not trying to be argumentative.

Sincerely,

Mike

I don't think you are being argumentative. I simply think that the choke hold took a little longer than your perception of it. I think it probably takes 10 seconds. In the actual choke hold the difference between 3 and 10 seconds is probably totally besides the point. In a competition situation in which you have been working hard, your blood gets super oxygenated, but also moves faster because your heart rate is up. I think a choke hold after exertion probably takes a little less time than if you were just standing there. But the only way you get choked out in three seconds is because pressure on the vagus nerve stops your heart or a TIA. Which is rare. Most people don't survive that. If that is whats happening to you, I strongly encourage you to stop it. Like, seriously.

But let me ask you this. When put in a choke hold, do you go limp? Do you completely lose the ability to move your arms and legs? I never have. Even three seconds of fighting is enough to get marked, or mark someone else. 10 seconds feels like the beating of a lifetime when someone is struggling to get free of you.

I have always been able to scream when in a choke hold. Now I can see there might be a difference between men and women in this regard. Men have a more prominent adams apple, a person doesn't have to press as hard to shove it against the larynx. Now I won't say I've ever let out a scream that sounded like a good old fashioned Hollywood scream. It sounds more like someone savaging a duck. But it's loud enough to get attention.

But there are absolutely choke holds that do not allow someone to scream. The one described in the article by Tom is a perfect example. But that takes longer to actually choke someone out since it works by blocking the airway, not the arteries. Which means longer for the victim to fight.

There is no sign that Stride was choked. Her eyes and tongue weren't protruding, the are no bruises on her neck, nothing was broken in the throat. And being choked through ischemia rather than asphyxiation means that as soon as a person is lying down, their pressure resumes to normal. These people are typically upright again in a few seconds. Stride could very well have woken up to someone cutting her throat, or even with it already done. But she would have clutched at the wound, and she didn't. She wound have tried to get away and she didn't. There is no way choking her out keeps her out long enough for her to bleed to death. That takes a couple of minutes. I can't imagine just lying there perfectly still waiting to die.

[Tom_Wescott]

A date for this would help a whole lot. We know there was a garrotting 'craze' in London in the 1860's, but from what I read garrotting was ever present.

What exactly is your question, Wick? Yes, garroting had been around for some time before 1888 and for some time after. My point is that what was being described as a martial arts choke hold was quite common in the very neighborhod in which Tabram and the others were murdered, but was not martial arts. It was a street hood thing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Arthur Harding, who was born into the Brick Lane neighborhood in the late Victorian period ...

A date for this would help a whole lot. We know there was a garrotting 'craze' in London in the 1860's, but from what I read garrotting was ever present.

[Errata]

Is there anything that you don't know? Apart from the identity of Jack The Ripper that is.

You posted earlier that Stride was not chocked out because she would have struggled, and soiled her dress in the process, now you are saying the man in the letter froze. Could Stride not have froze?

Absolutely she could have. I think she would still drop the bag, but yes, she absolutely could have been in a literal rictus of fear.

But looking at the bigger picture of alleged Jack the Ripper victims, the odds that every single victim froze is well, none. There is no chance. The freeze instinct is not nearly as common as fight or flight. One of these women should have fought like hell. None did. So if Stride is a Ripper victim, he is using some other method of controlling her. A method he used on all of them that prevented them from fighting. If she was not a Ripper victim, her killing could have used anything, and she could have frozen. But she died super suddenly. I can't even rule out her literally dying of fright. And if Schwartz in fact saw her being assaulted earlier, we know she has a fairly well developed fight instinct. Screaming is usually part of fight but not flight. So physics and behavior don't match up. I'm sure there is a reason, I just don't know what it is.

I don't know everything. But I am Bipolar and I do have a scar on my hindbrain that affects my reflexes. I am for some reason always tuned very high, resulting in a physiological anxiety disorder. When you have something wrong with you for a long time, you do a lot of research. I actually had to be taught a flight response as a child, because for some reason I didn't have it, and I needed it. You can't fight a car coming straight at you for example. I also had some severe injuries from a really spectacular basketball injury, and I had to relearn how to move some basic parts. Like my arm. Studying moods, psychology, neurochemicals, reflexes, kinesthesiology, involuntary functions all purely out of self interest gives you a unique knowledge base. It also gives you quite the library in which to go look stuff up. This stuff pertains to me. So I know it. If it didn't apply to me I can't imagine having run into it.