Evidence to prove a suspect valid

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Tom. Thanks.

Ah, this thread is becoming interesting.

Was it Gilyarovski? Yes, it would explain why there is no record of his being interviewed, etc.

Of course, I am also interested in Joseph Lave. But my chief concern is that he gave an interview. Wonder if he was sought out or vice versa?

Cheers.
LC

With Lave Lynn you get the Eagle statement....since they both claimed to be at the same place at the same time and neither saw anything...that they could remember anyway.

Wasn't there an account by a member taken the night of the murder by someone named Giller, or Gillen? I cant recall exactly which.

Thing is.....at 12:40 Liz would have been visible if on the street and if in the passageway, she would be visible to people onsite. How is it that both Eagle and Lave missed that?

Ive speculated before that Eagle may well have been the date she was waiting for...if that's why she was there....it might explain his return to the club. I know men that have dropped one date off and picked up another later on...not so far fetched.

Cheers

[lynn cates]

interesting

Hello Tom. Thanks.

Ah, this thread is becoming interesting.

Was it Gilyarovski? Yes, it would explain why there is no record of his being interviewed, etc.

Of course, I am also interested in Joseph Lave. But my chief concern is that he gave an interview. Wonder if he was sought out or vice versa?

Cheers.
LC

[tji]

Tracy, we have one reason for assuming that Liz was not strangled in addition to the physical evidence, the proclamation by the man who examined her in the passage, who stated that she may have been grabbed by the scarf, had it twisted and was cut while falling.

That is just a few seconds...strangling wasnt a requirement for a death that quick. And Liz Stride is the ONLY Canonical who had a medical professional state that she may have been cut "while falling". All the others were on the ground, on their backs.

cheers

Hi Michael

I am afraid you have misunderstood, but reading my post I can understand why, my apologies, I didn't mean that she was strangled for an allotted time then her throat cut, I meant that the garroting with the handkerchief was used as a swift way to incapacitate her before her throat was cut. A quick grab and twist of her scarf from behind, done quickly for a couple of seconds could incapacitate her.

I was of the opinion she was on the floor when her throat was cut, but I am not sure if this would make a huge difference to the M.O?
Tracy

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom.

"However, what I do know is that on the weekends a man would stand outside and hand out free copies of the Arbeter Fraint to passersby, hoping some would want to check out the club and maybe donate money. That's how they make money. What's curiously missing from all accounts of Berner Street that night are reports of such a man."

Now you're TALKING! I have long wondered whether a club chap saw some of the Liz event.

Cheers.
LC

IF this scenario is correct and Parcel Man was one of the guys in the back who work on the paper, my money is on the guy (whose name I can't recall) that you discovered in Arbeter Fraint. Why did the club keep him from the police? Maybe because they knew he'd been seen with Stride.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

Ah!

Hello Tom.

"However, what I do know is that on the weekends a man would stand outside and hand out free copies of the Arbeter Fraint to passersby, hoping some would want to check out the club and maybe donate money. That's how they make money. What's curiously missing from all accounts of Berner Street that night are reports of such a man."

Now you're TALKING! I have long wondered whether a club chap saw some of the Liz event.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Wouldn't it only suggest Liz that spoke to, or was spoken to by, a club member?

I don't think the Arbeter Fraint suggestion has any merit beyond conjecture.

I agree on both counts. But my conjecture kicks your conjecture's butt any day.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Tom

Yes I'm familiar with your "Parcel Man" theory. It's a step too far for my liking though to assume that he carried copies of the Arbeiter Fraint.

I'm still on the fence regarding Schwartz, it's possible that he made the whole thing up, if so, the last reliable witness to see Stride and a possible suspect is PC Smith. Even if Schwartz was telling the truth, I'm in the camp of those who believe that it was possible for another assailant to have approached and killed Stride after her encounter with Broadshoulders. I know some contemporary sources believe this to be the case also. I believe tht assailant was Parcel Man.

Regards

Observer

Hi Obsy. It's speculation on my part, of course. And I'm certainly not married to the idea that Smith saw a clubman with papers. However, what I do know is that on the weekends a man would stand outside and hand out free copies of the Arbeter Fraint to passerbys, hoping some would want to check out the club and maybe donate money. That's how they make money. What's curiously missing from all accounts of Berner Street that night are reports of such a man. Since the dimensions of Arbeter Fraint are exact to that of Smith's parcel, and what he describes is a well-dressed young man talking to people outside the club, I don't see it as an unreasonable suggestion.

As for someone having attacked Swartz after BS Man leaving the scene, I too see that as a possibility. However, I think Pipeman would make better sense than BS Man since at least he was known to have still been in the area at the time, whereas Parcel Man was last seen more than 10 minutes prior. And just for the record, I don't put a terrible amount of stock on Smith having provided the correct time for what he saw.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

By the by.....if as Tom indicated, Lynn, myself and others are correct is assessing the package as containing the Arbeter Fraint printed that day, then there would be proof Liz knew at least one member of that club.

Wouldn't it only suggest Liz that spoke to, or was spoken to by, a club member?

I don't think the Arbeter Fraint suggestion has any merit beyond conjecture.

[Wickerman]

Hello Tom. Thanks.

I based that on my observation that the drawing of Eygle strikes me as similar to that of Dimshits.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

That suggested to me the same artist used the same template, thats all.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all - long time no see, hope you are all well

Just a few thoughts to add if I may -

Reading through some posts I did read someone say that Liz couldn't have been strangled as there was no marks, but this doesn't have to be the case - especially in cases of ligature strangling - or as Tom referred to them, garroting.

'Because of the slowly compressive nature of forces involved in strangulation, victims may present with deceivingly harmless signs and symptoms. There may be no or minimal external symptoms of soft tissue injury.'

So it is entirely possible given the above that when Liz was examined there were no external markings to be seen.

Also a reason why she may have not screamed is Aphonia, the immobility to produce voice which can be caused and is often accompanied by fear. Seems reasonable to assume this could have been the case with Liz, especially as we know she was shook up by the events taking place at the time.

So in my opinion I would say that it is quite possible for a blitz attack scenario,(on all the victims) but especially with Liz and her scarf as the initial weapon, fear making her immobile for the precious few seconds she could have used to escape.


Strangulation is very frequently a common factor in sexual assault - (just thought I would add that one in there, for those who believe the attacks are sexually motivated )

Tracy

Tracy, we have one reason for assuming that Liz was not strangled in addition to the physical evidence, the proclamation by the man who examined her in the passage, who stated that she may have been grabbed by the scarf, had it twisted and was cut while falling.

That is just a few seconds...strangling wasnt a requirement for a death that quick. And Liz Stride is the ONLY Canonical who had a medical professional state that she may have been cut "while falling". All the others were on the ground, on their backs.

cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Tom

Yes I'm familiar with your "Parcel Man" theory. It's a step too far for my liking though to assume that he carried copies of the Arbeiter Fraint.

I'm still on the fence regarding Schwartz, it's possible that he made the whole thing up, if so, the last reliable witness to see Stride and a possible suspect is PC Smith. Even if Schwartz was telling the truth, I'm in the camp of those who believe that it was possible for another assailant to have approached and killed Stride after her encounter with Broadshoulders. I know some contemporary sources believe this to be the case also. I believe tht assailant was Parcel Man.

Regards

Observer

I just thought that Id highlight the only point youve made that I agree with. Although you spoiled it by following it with speculation about BSM. Youre aware of course that itw within the realm of possibility based on the senior physician that attended the body at 1:16 that Liz was cut as early as 12:46.....kinda close for the phantom menace to show up after BSM isnt it?

By the by.....if as Tom indicated, Lynn, myself and others are correct is assessing the package as containing the Arbeter Fraint printed that day, then there would be proof Liz knew at least one member of that club.

Cheers

[tji]

Hi all - long time no see, hope you are all well

Just a few thoughts to add if I may -

Reading through some posts I did read someone say that Liz couldn't have been strangled as there was no marks, but this doesn't have to be the case - especially in cases of ligature strangling - or as Tom referred to them, garroting.

'Because of the slowly compressive nature of forces involved in strangulation, victims may present with deceivingly harmless signs and symptoms. There may be no or minimal external symptoms of soft tissue injury.'

So it is entirely possible given the above that when Liz was examined there were no external markings to be seen.

Also a reason why she may have not screamed is Aphonia, the immobility to produce voice which can be caused and is often accompanied by fear. Seems reasonable to assume this could have been the case with Liz, especially as we know she was shook up by the events taking place at the time.

So in my opinion I would say that it is quite possible for a blitz attack scenario,(on all the victims) but especially with Liz and her scarf as the initial weapon, fear making her immobile for the precious few seconds she could have used to escape.


Strangulation is very frequently a common factor in sexual assault - (just thought I would add that one in there, for those who believe the attacks are sexually motivated )

Tracy

[Errata]

Hi Errata

Six inches of cold steel held against one's throat by a snarling maniac. I'd say. What could they have done? Where could they have ran? As you imply though, the fact that those women were laid onto the ground without any evidence of a struggle does take on certain air of mystery.

Regards

Observer

If he had hands on them, then yeah. Then again he probably wouldn't have even needed a knife since none of these women were exactly in top form, one way or another.

But he isn't dragging them to the ground, and he isn't forcing them. Aside from the mud splatters and ground disturbance you expect to see from that, the first thing these women would do would be to put a hand down to break their fall. Anytime you don't hit the ground under your own control you do that. No one had skinned or muddy heels of the hand. Certainly Stride didn't. So we're talking about a guy standing in front of them ordering them to lie down. He doesn't have his hands on her. Brandishing a gun? Yes sir, right away sir. A knife? ONE of them should have made a dash for it. They all had places they could go. A bathroom, a clubhouse, a busy street, a rooming house.

I'm not saying a threat of a knife wouldn't affect any of them, but one of them should have tried to run.

[Observer]

Hi Obsy. I assume you're aware of my theory regarding PC Smith's 'Parcel Man'? I know Michael Richards and Lynn Cates have repeated it countless times on here. But I'm curious to know why you'd suspect Parcel Man since it appears he wasn't on the scene 10 minutes later when Schwartz sauntered through?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom

Yes I'm familiar with your "Parcel Man" theory. It's a step too far for my liking though to assume that he carried copies of the Arbeiter Fraint.

I'm still on the fence regarding Schwartz, it's possible that he made the whole thing up, if so, the last reliable witness to see Stride and a possible suspect is PC Smith. Even if Schwartz was telling the truth, I'm in the camp of those who believe that it was possible for another assailant to have approached and killed Stride after her encounter with Broadshoulders. I know some contemporary sources believe this to be the case also. I believe tht assailant was Parcel Man.

Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Is the threat of a knife enough?

Hi Errata

Six inches of cold steel held against one's throat by a snarling maniac. I'd say. What could they have done? Where could they have ran? As you imply though, the fact that those women were laid onto the ground without any evidence of a struggle does take on certain air of mystery.

Regards

Observer