The Bethnal Green Botherer

[Herlock Sholmes]

Although I’ve just re-read some of the chat on this interesting character I was hoping that Wick (or anyone) might give us a fuller account for discussion? Newspaper reports etc. I don’t think that there’s a dedicated thread but if there is and I’ve missed then my apologies.

Cheers.

[Abby Normal]

Although I’ve just re-read some of the chat on this interesting character I was hoping that Wick (or anyone) might give us a fuller account for discussion? Newspaper reports etc. I don’t think that there’s a dedicated thread but if there is and I’ve missed then my apologies.

Cheers.

hey herlock
im sure wicky will respond but just from memory... he was tje man that accosted sarah lewis and a friend on the wed night before the kelly murder. he asked one of them, he didnt care which, to accompany him to a secluded place. he kept bothering them and was reaching into his pocket, when she asked him what he had there.. and he replied, something the ladys dont like. he scared tjem so bad they ran away.

she said she saw him again the night of kellys murder, talking to another woman outside the Britannia, and was again frightened by him, kept looking back over her shoulder as she made her way to millers court.

he fits the general description of the ripper, and his behavior is highly creepy and suspicious.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Having a quick look at a few previous posts I noticed the phrase ‘awkward gait’ used in regard to the BGB. Then I thought that I remembered something similar mentioned in connection to the suspect Hyams in Sarah Bax Horton’s book (due out at the end of August)?

[Wickerman]

The story of the two women, Lewis & Kennedy being accosted on Wednesday evening first came to light on the Saturday, the day after Kelly's murder, published in the London Evening News. Read the large paragraph near the end of the article, I put the story in italics.


The actual scene of the murder is Miller's court, Dorset street - though the locality if known to residents in the neighbourhood as McCarthy's court. This is owing to the fact that a man named McCarthy is the chief owner or occupier of the houses there. Information has come to hand which tends to throw a strong light on the much disputed point as to when the tragedy was actually perpetrated. Immediately opposite the house in which Mary Jane Kelly was murdered is a tenement occupied by an Irishman, named Gallagher, and his family. On Thursday night Gallagher and his wife retired to rest at a fairly early hour. Their married daughter, a woman named Mrs. Kennedy, came home, however, at a late hour. Passing the Britannia, commonly known as Ringer's, at the top of Dorset street, at three o'clock on the Friday morning, she saw the deceased talking to a respectably dressed man, whom she identified as having accosted her a night or two before.

THE CRY OF "MURDER"

She passed them without taking any notice, and went home to bed. Between half past three and four o'clock in the morning Mrs. Kennedy, who passed a very restless night, heard a cry of "Murder" that seemed to come from the opposite side of the court, but according to her, she little thought of the awful tragedy that was then being enacted. She went to sleep, and it was not until eleven o'clock in the morning that she heard of the murder. So far as can be ascertained, Mrs. Kennedy is the only person who heard the cry of "Murder" that came from the unfortunate woman. In connection with Mrs. Kennedy, it may be mentioned that she and her sister, a widow, were, on Wednesday night last, accosted by a man when they were walking down the Bethnal Green road. It was about eight o'clock when this occurred.

THE MAN WITH THE BLACK BAG

The man is described by Mrs. Kennedy as having on a pair of dark mixture trousers and a long dark overcoat. He wore a low crowned brown hat and carried a shiny black bag in his hand. Further, it was stated that he was a man of medium stature, with dark moustache, and that he had an extremely awkward gait, which could at once be recognised. The stranger refused to stand Mrs. Kennedy and her sister a drink, but invited them to go with him down a dark sideway off the main road. They accompanied him as far as a gateway with a small door in it, but when he stepped through and left his bag on the ground, saying he would take either of them with him, a feeling of distrust seized the women. Mrs. Kennedy picked up the bag, whereupon the stranger exclaimed that he was not Jack the Ripper. Just then the woman noticed the unnatural glare of the man's eyes, and instinctively fled from the spot leaving him behind. They subsequently ascertained that the same man accosted other women the same night. Mrs. Kennedy is confident that the man whom she noticed speaking to the woman Kelly at three o'clock on Friday morning is identical with the person who accosted her on the previous Wednesday. Both she and her sister are most positive in their assertion that they could at once identify the man if they saw him. This evidence as to the cry of "Murder" is extremely important in view of the fact that a number of witnesses have come forward and stated that they saw the deceased woman Kelly as late as ten o'clock on the morning that the murder occurred. The entrance to Miller's court is guarded by constables night and day, and the public are rigidly excluded. It was at first erroneously stated that the body was found on a bed in the second floor front room. In reality the remains were found on the ground floor, and the windows have since been barricaded by the police. The body was in the course of yesterday removed to the Shoreditch Mortuary. It is currently reported that in the course of yesterday afternoon and evening a large number of arrests were made the police, but that in each case it was found necessary to discharge the prisoners through lack of sufficient evidence as to identity.

A representative of the Press Association has interviewed a woman named Kennedy, who was on the night of the murder staying with her parents at a house situate in the court immediately opposite the room in which the body of Mary Kelly was found. This woman's statement, if true - and there is very little reason for doubting its veracity - establishes the time at which the murderer commenced his operations. She states that about three o'clock on Friday morning she entered Dorset street on her way to her parents' house, which is immediately opposite that in which the murder was committed. She noticed three persons at the corner of the street, near the Britannia public house. There was a man - a young man, respectably dressed, and with a dark moustache, talking to a woman whom she did not know, and also a female poorly clad and without any headgear. The man and woman appeared to be the worse for liquor, and she heard the man ask, "Are you coming," whereupon the woman, who appeared to be obstinate turned in an opposite direction to which the man apparently wished her to go. Mrs. Kennedy went on her way, and nothing unusual occurred until about half an hour later. She states that she did not retire to rest immediately she reached her parents' abode, but sat up, and between half past three and a quarter to four she heard a cry of "Murder" in a woman's voice proceed from the direction in which Mary Kelly's room was situated. As the cry was not repeated she took no further notice of the circumstance until the morning, when she found the police in possession of the place, preventing all egress to the occupants of the small house in this court. When questioned by the police as to what she had heard throughout the night, she made a statement to the above effect.

She has since supplemented that statement by the following: On Wednesday evening, about eight o'clock, me and my sister were in the neighbourhood of Bethnal Green road when we were accosted by a very suspicious man about forty years of age. He wore a short jacket, over which he had a long top coat. He had a black moustache, and wore a billycock hat. He invited us to accompany him into a lonely spot "As he was known about here, and there was a policeman looking at him." She asserts that no policeman was in sight. He made several strange remarks, and appeared to be agitated. He was very white in the face and made every endeavour to prevent them looking him straight in the face. He carried a black bag. He avoided walking with them, and led the way into a very dark thoroughfare "at the back of the workhouse," inviting them to follow, which they did. He then pushed open a small door in a pair of large gates, and requested one of them to follow him, remarking "I only want one of you," whereupon the women became suspicious. He acted in a very strange and suspicious manner, and refused to leave his bag in the possession of one of the females. Both women became alarmed at his actions and escaped, at the same time raising an alarm of Jack the Ripper. A gentleman, who was passing, is stated to have intercepted the man while the women made their escape. Mrs. Kennedy asserts that the man whom she saw on Friday morning with the woman at the corner of Dorset street resembles very closely the individual who caused such alarm on the night in question, and that she would recognise him again if confronted with him.

This description of the man suspected of the murder tallies exactly with that in the possession of the police, and there is very little doubt that the murderer entered the murdered woman's house late on Thursday night, or early on Friday morning.

[Wickerman]

On the same day (Sat. 10th) we find another account from the Echo, which reads like it could be the same character, this time related by Mrs Paumier.

A Mrs. Paumier, a young woman who sells roasted chestnuts at the corner of Widegate-street, a narrow thoroughfare about two minutes' walk from the scene of the murder, states that, about twelve o'clock at noon yesterday, a man, dressed like a gentleman, came to her, and said, "I suppose you have heard about the murder in Dorset-street." She replied that she had, whereupon the man laughed, and said, "I know more about it than you." He then stared into her face, and went down Sandy's-row, another narrow thoroughfare which cuts across Widegate-street. When he had got some way off he looked back, as if to see whether she was watching him, and then disappeared. Mrs Paumier says the man has a black moustache, was about five feet six inches in height, and wore a black silk hat, a black coat, and speckled trousers. He also carried a black shiny bag about a foot in depth and foot and a half in length. Mrs. Paumier stated that the same man accosted three women in the street on Thursday night and they chaffed him and asked him what he had in the bag and he replied, "Something that the ladies don't like." This, of course gives an increased importance to the statement. One of the three young woman in question, Sarah Reney by name - a girl about twenty years of age - states that she was with two other girls on Thursday night in Brushfield-street, which is near Dorset-street, when a man, wearing a tall hat and a black coat, and carrying a black bag, came up to her, and said, "Will you come with me?" She told him she would not, and asked him what he had in the bag, and he said, "Something the ladies don't like." He then walked away.

[Wickerman]

Then from the Evening Chronicle, 10 Nov. we find an arrest of a man who appears to be the one in question. There was a second man arrested, but the chronicle added a footnote concerning this first man (below).

"A man was arrested last night in Whitechapel on suspicion of having committed the Dorset-street crime. He was pointed out to the police by some women as a man who had accosted them on Thursday night and whose movements excited suspicion. He was taken to Commercial-street police-station, followed by an immense crowd".

"Though little importance is attached to the first arrest made, the police (says the Central News) are extremely reticent, and refuse to give any information regarding the man".

[Wickerman]

The first we hear from Sarah Lewis (the second woman) is at the inquest, published the next day 13th Nov., in the Daily Telegraph.

Sarah Lewis deposed: I live at 24, Great Pearl-street, and am a laundress. I know Mrs. Keyler, in Miller's-court, and went to her house at 2, Miller's-court, at 2.30a.m. on Friday. It is the first house. I noticed the time by the Spitalfields' Church clock. When I went into the court, opposite the lodging-house I saw a man with a wideawake. There was no one talking to him. He was a stout-looking man, and not very tall. The hat was black. I did not take any notice of his clothes. The man was looking up the court; he seemed to be waiting or looking for some one. Further on there was a man and woman - the later being in drink. There was nobody in the court. I dozed in a chair at Mrs. Keyler's, and woke at about half- past three. I heard the clock strike.
[Coroner] What woke you up ? - I could not sleep. I sat awake until nearly four, when I heard a female's voice shouting "Murder" loudly. It seemed like the voice of a young woman. It sounded at our door. There was only one scream.
[Coroner] Were you afraid ? Did you wake anybody up ? - No, I took no notice, as I only heard the one scream.
[Coroner] You stayed at Keyler's house until what time ? - Half-past five p.m. on Friday. The police would not let us out of the court.
[Coroner] Have you seen any suspicious persons in the district ? - On Wednesday night I was going along the Bethnal-green-road, with a woman, about eight o'clock, when a gentleman passed us. He followed us and spoke to us, and wanted us to follow him into an entry. He had a shiny leather bag with him.
[Coroner] Did he want both of you ? - No; only one. I refused. He went away and came back again, saying he would treat us. He put down his bag and picked it up again, saying, "What are you frightened about ? Do you think I've got anything in the bag ?" We then ran away, as we were frightened.
[Coroner] Was he a tall man ? - He was short, pale-faced, with a black moustache, rather small. His age was about forty.
[Coroner] Was it a large bag ? - No, about 6in to 9in long. His hat was a high round hat. He had a brownish overcoat, with a black short coat underneath. His trousers were a dark pepper-and- salt.
[Coroner] After he left you what did you do ? - We ran away.
[Coroner] Have you seen him since ? - On Friday morning, about half-past two a.m., when I was going to Miller's-court, I met the same man with a woman in Commercial-street, near Mr. Ringer's public-house (the Britannia). He had no overcoat on.
[Coroner] Had he the black bag ? - Yes.
[Coroner] Were the man and woman quarrelling ? - No; they were talking. As I passed he looked at me. I don't know whether he recognised me. There was no policeman about.

[Abby Normal]

thanks wicker
fascinating stuff!

[Wickerman]

Then we have Bowyer's sighting of the weird looking man in the court Wednesday night - did the 'Botherer' follow Kennedy to her home in Millers Court?

Harry Bowyer states that on Wednesday night he saw a man speaking to Kelly who resembled the description given by the fruiterer of the supposed Berner Street murderer. He was, perhaps, 27 or 28 and had a dark moustache and very peculiar eyes. His appearance was rather smart and attention was drawn to him by showing very white cuffs and a rather long white collar, the ends of which came down in front over a black coat. He did not carry a bag.
Western Mail, 12 Nov. 1888.

If it wasn't for the missing bag I would suspect this was the 'Botherer', and this is where he first? met Mary Kelly.

The reason, in my view, that Bowyer gave a description of this man that resembled the description given by Packer, is that Packer did see Stride with the killer, likewise the man carrying a parcel with Stride at 12:30 ish was the same man described by PC Smith.
Stride had been with her killer since at least 11:00 pm, at the Bricklayers Arms.

There are brief press reports that suggest Kelly was seen with a respectably dressed stranger on the night of her murder, but two details seem to be consistent, his awkward gait and weird eyes.

The appearance of this man is far from definitely ascertainable. Some say he wore a high silk hat and brown overcoat; others that he was habited in dark mixture trousers, long, dark overcoat, and low-crowned, brown hat, and that he carried the now famous shiny, black bag in his hand. In stature he is variously described as of medium height and slight, short and thick set, and of awkward gait. Nearly all the accounts agree, however, as to his wearing a black moustache and having a very remarkable and unpleasant glare in his eyes.
Sunday Times 11th Nov.

Even as far back as the murder of Annie Chapman in Sept. one suspect was seen running away from the scene that may once again be the Botherer.

John Thimbleby, coppersmith in Hanbury's brewery, went to the Commercial-street-station at one o'clock yesterday to say that at six o'clock that morning a man attracted his particular attention before he heard of the murder. He was hurrying from Hanbury-street, below where the murder took place, into Brick-lane. He was walking, almost running, and had a peculiar gait, his knees not bending when he walked. (This is a peculiarity of "Leather Apron's" gait). He was dressed in a dark stiff hat and cutaway coat, reaching to his knees. His face was clean shaven, and he seemed about 30 years old. Thimbleby says he can identify him.
Lloyds Weekly News, 9 Sept. 1888.

Every one of these suspects could be a different person, yet the possibility does exist that every one could be the same man.

[Aethelwulf]

Very interesting and certainly a person if interest. Some questions:

• How does this chap square with Lawende's fair man? BGB seems to be dark? I note that BGB also has salt and pepper clothing. There is caveat to add that might explain this. Weirdly, the offical police description of the man that attacked Farmer is dark mustache. Farmer said he had a dark mustache, yet everyone that saw him runoff in broad daylight and was sober said slight fair mustache. I wonder if what we're actually talking about is something like Schwartz said - small brown mustache, sort of a mid brown that could be subjectively taken as fair or dark and considering different lighting. I'm not saying these need be the same man, but it is clear just how variable people can be at describing the same person.
• If being unremarkable was the ripper's key to success, the BGB is drawing a lot of attention to himself with his approach to women. Some of the times seem early (8pm) although it would have been dark in Nov.
• If this guy was the ripper I think it adds to my feeling that he wasn't local (living in the heart of Whitechapel). He is approaching women in the heart of his killing ground yet no one seems to know him. He is potentially seen again by Packer and one of the other witnesses, and there is also Hutches other sighting. No one seems to have a name. If he was living in the heart of it he'd have been recognised. The fact that he felt he could openly approach people and roam about in the area suggests to me he knew he wouldn't be known by name.

Just my opinion.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes, interesting stuff Wick and thanks for posting the background info. Do you see an issue in the fact that he had Kennedy and Lewis with him but wanted only one of them? It’s the same point that applies to BS man and Aman. Would he have killed one leaving one free to identify him? Perhaps it could be suggested that he might have intended to kill the second woman too?

[Lewis C]

Interesting stuff. A question that I have concerns him saying that his bag contains something that the ladies don't like. That would be a rather stupid thing to say if he wanted a woman to go somewhere with him. I guess it could be that by the time he said that, he had given up on being able to kill the women he was talking to, and he considered scaring them or vaguely fantasizing to them to be better than nothing - he got some small pleasure from doing that.

[Wickerman]

Very interesting and certainly a person if interest. Some questions:
[*]How does this chap square with Lawende's fair man? BGB seems to be dark? I note that BGB also has salt and pepper clothing. There is caveat to add that might explain this. Weirdly, the offical police description of the man that attacked Farmer is dark mustache. Farmer said he had a dark mustache, yet everyone that saw him runoff in broad daylight and was sober said slight fair mustache. I wonder if what we're actually talking about is something like Schwartz said - small brown mustache, sort of a mid brown that could be subjectively taken as fair or dark and considering different lighting. I'm not saying these need be the same man, but it is clear just how variable people can be at describing the same person.

With respect to your first question, I have not bought into Lawende seeing Eddowes & the killer, her body was not identified because Lawende did not see her face. It was only her clothes that looked the same because they were dark. He didn't mention anything specific about her clothing. If you recall the head of City CID. McWilliam was not convinced Lawende had seen Eddowes either.
I'm more inclined to accept the people seen passing through St. James Place at about 1:30 am by a nightwatchman, they must have been a couple as the City police had been instructed to follow all couples seen out after a certain time. The nightwatchman was questioned by a man who seemed to be following them.
The man who attacked Annie Farmer was identified, I'm pretty sure Debs updated me on the man, her estranged husband?, or something like that.

[*]If being unremarkable was the ripper's key to success, the BGB is drawing a lot of attention to himself with his approach to women. Some of the times seem early (8pm) although it would have been dark in Nov.

The idea the killer was unremarkable is modern, the police didn't express an opinion on his methods. Personally, I think we have created a type of supersleuth, mostly out of our ignorance in having so many unanswered questions. These type of killers are hardly unique, in fact isn't it a common remark today when one is identified neighbors & friends are often in denial. He was either everybody's friend or a local nutjob.

[*]If this guy was the ripper I think it adds to my feeling that he wasn't local (living in the heart of Whitechapel). He is approaching women in the heart of his killing ground yet no one seems to know him. He is potentially seen again by Packer and one of the other witnesses, and there is also Hutches other sighting. No one seems to have a name. If he was living in the heart of it he'd have been recognised. The fact that he felt he could openly approach people and roam about in the area suggests to me he knew he wouldn't be known by name.
Just my opinion.

I don't think he was local either, but he may have been one of those who went slumming by renting a room in Whitechapel for a weekend. You can get to know the neighborhood quite well if you spend your spare time wandering the streets for entertainment.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Is anyone else seeing the same problem on this thread or is it only me. All the posts on this thread have disappeared. All that’s left is the expanse of Green with “just my opinion” in it followed by Wick’s short response. All the other threads that I’ve looked at this morning are as normal.

[Scott Nelson]

I don't think he was local either, but he may have been one of those who went slumming by renting a room in Whitechapel for a weekend. You can get to know the neighborhood quite well if you spend your spare time wandering the streets for entertainment.

And you do/don't think he could have been Joseph Isaacs, Jon?