The Bethnal Green Botherer

[The Rookie Detective]

A most excellent thread indeed.

It would appear that we are looking at a stout man around 40 who accosted women and making direct reference to the Ripper.

But we also have a younger man in his twenties seen with 2 women, one of whom was almost certainly Kelly.

The man asks her "Are you coming?"

But there are 2 different women.

It certainly is a scrambled Jig Saw to unravel, but absolutely compelling nonethelsss.

Thank you Herlock for starting this thread and for Jon for being so knowledgeable in this particular area.

Jon, if I recall, there was a report of a man who was subsequently seen with detachable white cuffs and a bag etc...

When we combine the man accosting women on multiple occasions, approaching women together, referring to ladies not liking what's in his bag, mentioning that he's not the Ripper to the women bit without prompt, it all sounds very suspicious.

But...

This all seems very theatrical to me.

It just as though the man is playing a part, putting on a show as it were.

Could this man have been an actor?!

Quite literally.

He reminds me a little of Charles Reeves of WVC fame.

Reeves was an accomplished actor who was known specifically for his character roles, and his uncanny ability to change his age and appearance. His playing age was said to be quite vast range, according to his daughter's own words about her father in her writings/ autobiography

There's also the little known fact that Reeves used to live a stones throw from Bucks Row before having to move back further east due to the construction of the district line at Whitechapel.
His daughter attended the board school in Bucks Row for years.

I am not suggesting this was Reeves, far from it. But the idea that this man had almost a theatrical nature, seems to me that he could have been a fantasist who was playing the part of the Ripper, but who was not actually involved in any of the murders.

That said, the BGB warrants very close scrutiny.


Thanks for this excellent thread.


RD

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock

Doubt Bellsmith was Jack the Ripper but an interesting character nonetheless.

Cheers John

Hi John,

He was. And it’s not impossible that the killer might have had some warped religious motive (in his mind at least….ridding the streets of sin and vice etc)

[John Wheat]

The Smith story was one of the first that intrigued me in the case John.

Hi Herlock

Doubt Bellsmith was Jack the Ripper but an interesting character nonetheless.

Cheers John

[Herlock Sholmes]

Wentworth Bellsmith also walked with an awkward gait. Reportedly a knock kneed gait.

The Smith story was one of the first that intrigued me in the case John.

[Herlock Sholmes]

He seems to be the first suspect I know of, besides Leather Apron, who had that physical impairment, I should look it up. Although, if he had a broken left arm I should think strangling someone would be a difficult task. Another point, one of the mutilations perpetrated on Mary Kelly must have been committed with the left hand, it hardly seems possible to do it with the right hand.

The doctors described that her heart had been removed by the killer reaching up under the rib cage to pull the heart down, as this was done from the left side of the body it is only obvious a left hand was used.
I wonder what the author says about that?
Maybe, all that glitters is not gold.....

Yes, it will be interesting to see how she deals with this arm injury. It’s the kind of point that, on the surface at least, would make you say “well that counts him out then.”

[GBinOz]

The doctors described that her heart had been removed by the killer reaching up under the rib cage to pull the heart down

Hi John,

The autopsy actually stated "The pericardium was open below and the heart absent.".

As you probably know, the pericardium is the fibrous sac that encloses the heart. Removal of the heart from the pericardium requires a surgical procedure which was little known at the time and taught by Virchow. Francis Thompson was a student of Virchow, and this is a major point in Richard Patterson's argument for Thompson being the ripper. My understanding is that Patterson claims that the heart can't be removed from the pericardium by a slash and grab.

I also agree with John Wheat that G. Wentworth Bellsmith was known to walk with an awkward gait.

Cheers, George

[John Wheat]

He seems to be the first suspect I know of, besides Leather Apron, who had that physical impairment, I should look it up. Although, if he had a broken left arm I should think strangling someone would be a difficult task. Another point, one of the mutilations perpetrated on Mary Kelly must have been committed with the left hand, it hardly seems possible to do it with the right hand.

The doctors described that her heart had been removed by the killer reaching up under the rib cage to pull the heart down, as this was done from the left side of the body it is only obvious a left hand was used.
I wonder what the author says about that?
Maybe, all that glitters is not gold.....

Wentworth Bellsmith also walked with an awkward gait. Reportedly a knock kneed gait.

[Wickerman]

Wick, will you be getting the Hyams book? Might the ‘awkward gait’ at least suggest that Hyams could have been the BGB? I’ve ordered it as it sounded interesting and it got praise from Paul Begg.

He seems to be the first suspect I know of, besides Leather Apron, who had that physical impairment, I should look it up. Although, if he had a broken left arm I should think strangling someone would be a difficult task. Another point, one of the mutilations perpetrated on Mary Kelly must have been committed with the left hand, it hardly seems possible to do it with the right hand.

The doctors described that her heart had been removed by the killer reaching up under the rib cage to pull the heart down, as this was done from the left side of the body it is only obvious a left hand was used.
I wonder what the author says about that?
Maybe, all that glitters is not gold.....

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Scott, my research on Joseph Isaacs left me with the impression he was a small time thief and confidence trickster, a poser, he wanted others to see him as something above his true status.
I don't see him as a killer, and he couldn't have killed Kelly anyway, he was certainly locked up in Barnett on the night of the 8th until the 12th when he appeared in court.

Wick, will you be getting the Hyams book? Might the ‘awkward gait’ at least suggest that Hyams could have been the BGB? I’ve ordered it as it sounded interesting and it got praise from Paul Begg.

[JeffHamm]

Oh, nice to see a dedicated thread on the BGB. While I'm not suspect focused, I find the BGB to be a fascinating puzzle, for as Wick points out, the descriptions could be all of different people, but there is also the possibility that could all be the same person too (and everything in between of course). It leaves us with another set of random puzzle pieces, which we can try to arrange in different ways, and see where they lead. The idea being, of course, if we find the right arrangement, something will come into focus that signals "correct" - and by "correct" I don't mean "the BGB is JtR", just that we've sorted the puzzle pieces into those that go together and those that do not. Sadly, it is quite likely that signal will be too weak for us to detect, but the fun is in trying, and if nothing else, it can result in discussions about different ways to think about the case, and who knows, from that maybe something useful will emerge.

I wonder if the BGB was listed in the now missing suspect file? If so, it would be very interesting if that were ever to resurface. Anyway, thanks to Herlock for starting this up, and to Wickerman for providing the information he's gathered. Whether or not all those reports are about the same person or not is of course an important question. To the extent they are, or even if a fair few of them are, then whoever the BGB was, he is someone we would like to know more about, as then we can start to assess what connection, if any, he may have to the JtR case. Quite likely none, though, as the police seem to have identified him (from some reports), but it would be nice for us to be able to assess things ourselves.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

Hi Scott, my research on Joseph Isaacs left me with the impression he was a small time thief and confidence trickster, a poser, he wanted others to see him as something above his true status.
I don't see him as a killer, and he couldn't have killed Kelly anyway, he was certainly locked up in Barnett on the night of the 8th until the 12th when he appeared in court.

[Scott Nelson]

I don't think he was local either, but he may have been one of those who went slumming by renting a room in Whitechapel for a weekend. You can get to know the neighborhood quite well if you spend your spare time wandering the streets for entertainment.

And you do/don't think he could have been Joseph Isaacs, Jon?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Is anyone else seeing the same problem on this thread or is it only me. All the posts on this thread have disappeared. All that’s left is the expanse of Green with “just my opinion” in it followed by Wick’s short response. All the other threads that I’ve looked at this morning are as normal.

[Wickerman]

Very interesting and certainly a person if interest. Some questions:
[*]How does this chap square with Lawende's fair man? BGB seems to be dark? I note that BGB also has salt and pepper clothing. There is caveat to add that might explain this. Weirdly, the offical police description of the man that attacked Farmer is dark mustache. Farmer said he had a dark mustache, yet everyone that saw him runoff in broad daylight and was sober said slight fair mustache. I wonder if what we're actually talking about is something like Schwartz said - small brown mustache, sort of a mid brown that could be subjectively taken as fair or dark and considering different lighting. I'm not saying these need be the same man, but it is clear just how variable people can be at describing the same person.

With respect to your first question, I have not bought into Lawende seeing Eddowes & the killer, her body was not identified because Lawende did not see her face. It was only her clothes that looked the same because they were dark. He didn't mention anything specific about her clothing. If you recall the head of City CID. McWilliam was not convinced Lawende had seen Eddowes either.
I'm more inclined to accept the people seen passing through St. James Place at about 1:30 am by a nightwatchman, they must have been a couple as the City police had been instructed to follow all couples seen out after a certain time. The nightwatchman was questioned by a man who seemed to be following them.
The man who attacked Annie Farmer was identified, I'm pretty sure Debs updated me on the man, her estranged husband?, or something like that.

[*]If being unremarkable was the ripper's key to success, the BGB is drawing a lot of attention to himself with his approach to women. Some of the times seem early (8pm) although it would have been dark in Nov.

The idea the killer was unremarkable is modern, the police didn't express an opinion on his methods. Personally, I think we have created a type of supersleuth, mostly out of our ignorance in having so many unanswered questions. These type of killers are hardly unique, in fact isn't it a common remark today when one is identified neighbors & friends are often in denial. He was either everybody's friend or a local nutjob.

[*]If this guy was the ripper I think it adds to my feeling that he wasn't local (living in the heart of Whitechapel). He is approaching women in the heart of his killing ground yet no one seems to know him. He is potentially seen again by Packer and one of the other witnesses, and there is also Hutches other sighting. No one seems to have a name. If he was living in the heart of it he'd have been recognised. The fact that he felt he could openly approach people and roam about in the area suggests to me he knew he wouldn't be known by name.
Just my opinion.

I don't think he was local either, but he may have been one of those who went slumming by renting a room in Whitechapel for a weekend. You can get to know the neighborhood quite well if you spend your spare time wandering the streets for entertainment.

[Lewis C]

Interesting stuff. A question that I have concerns him saying that his bag contains something that the ladies don't like. That would be a rather stupid thing to say if he wanted a woman to go somewhere with him. I guess it could be that by the time he said that, he had given up on being able to kill the women he was talking to, and he considered scaring them or vaguely fantasizing to them to be better than nothing - he got some small pleasure from doing that.