our killer been local

[caz]

...and if this killer was the author, why write so small?
Aren't messages typically broadcast 'loud' across the wall?, not squeezed onto a couple of bricks, like a whisper.

Why does that apply only if the killer wrote it, Jon? Someone wrote it and, as you say, graffiti is typically broadcast 'loud', not like a whisper.

Since this example was atypical, why are you looking for a typical graffiti artist and rejecting an atypical one?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

In a situation where time is of the essence, if a killer is going to take the time to make a point, then he is going to make the point clear. Otherwise he is wasting his time.

To my mind the graffito was always unrelated.

Ah, but Jon, if the killer had managed to clean himself up and stash the knife and innards somewhere, time would not necessarily have been of the essence once he had discarded the apron piece unseen and taken out his chalk. If there really was no evidence that the two items were connected, he'd have been as safe as anyone else chalking those few words. If anti-Semitic graffiti was as common in the vicinity as some would have us believe, then I don't see why the killer himself is any less of a suspect for joining in the game.

His 'point' may merely have been to keep the focus on those Dwellings and, in the wake of the Leather Apron scare, return the focus to the 'Juwes'. In that case it might have suited his purpose to make the message vague or ambiguous, or merely anti-Semitic in nature, to keep 'em all buzzing round that particular building instead of widening their search to where he may have been making his way home or trying to get some much needed shut-eye.

I also doubt the Jewish residents would have taken too kindly to any such messages defacing the entrances to their new home, so I don't buy that the last occupant to enter or leave while it was still light would have missed it or shrugged it off as par for the course. To still be there unnoticed when the apron was found, it surely had to be written after nightfall, or at least after the last resident had returned.

Love,

Caz
X

[Ben]

Yes, Ben has already tried to pull that stunt, as if anything that happened the following year has anything to do with Sept 30th 1888.

If you want vituperation and nastiness, Jon, keep annoying me with silly accusations that I'm "pulling a stunt", as opposed to conducting reasoned debate. It it reasonable - perfectly reasonable - to infer a potential connection between Long's behaviour on the 30th September 1888 and his dismissal just a year later for drunkenness on duty.

Consider this purely hypothetical scenario. Let's assume you write a lot of bollocks on the Casebook message board, and a person reading it - let's go with me, just for the sake of argument - felt that such bollocks reflected very poorly on you and your ability to conduct a sensible discussion. Let's further assume that it became public knowledge that you were incapacitated by alcohol a year after writing all that bollocks. Anyone familiar with said bollocks would be fully justified in arguing for a potential connection between the bollocks you wrote and the knowledge that you were severely in-drink a year later.

Again, purely hypothetical.

I'm not saying there IS a connection in Long's case, and I'm undecided as to whether or not the apron was there on his first visit, but it's babyish to cry "character assassination" when we're only alluding to a fact.

[Nick Spring]

Our killer has just committed two murders in a very short space of time he then decides to chalk a message on a wall and he makes no attempt to mention his very recent deeds makes no sense .When you take away the sensationlism and apply some common sense did our killer write that message I very much doubt it.Also wouldn't some nice fresh human organs dumped under it make things a little bit more exciting and create a lot more hatred towards the Jews.

Hi Pinkmoon,

I agree that is a good point. If the writing was by the killer then why not make it less the connection less tenuous and leave other deposits there too.

Personally I think the apron was just randomly put there by the killer but it is a coincidence that the graffito was there to, maybe he saw the writing and chose that as the aprons dumping spot.

All that said there is a pattern that runs through murders of creating a maximum shock effect.

Best

Nick

[Lechmere]

Wickerman
I hardly think discounting Spicer’s story can be construed as ignoring something that causes a wrinkle to my theory.
Can Spicer’s tale be incorporated into any half credible suspect theory?

Regarding the freshness of the graffiti – you are guessing that Halse was guessing. Halse saw it – you and I didn’t. I would suggest that one can tell whether chalk writing is fresh or not – whether it is blurred or crisp. Chalk also leave a slight ‘3D’ effect with bits sticking off slightly proud of the surface, these tend to be the bits that deteriorate first.

Regarding the size of the lettering.
By leaving the apron below the message – if he wrote the graffiti – the killer can have been fairly sure that it would have been noticed. Also the height of the bricks somewhat constrained the height of the lettering. It seems to me that he used the height and courses of the bricks as if they were lines on a page.
The doors jambs were only about a foot and a half wide. If he had written his message in a large script he would have only been able to write one word per line.

I don’t think it is a stunt to point out that Long was dismissed for drunkenness. It is a material fact to bear in mind when evaluating his reliability.
I rather doubt that a beat officer would routinely go in and up each stairwell on his beat. Long made no such claim.

[Lechmere]

Abbey
I would agree that an account such as Long’s should in general be accepted at face value.
But as we have seen there are reasons to cast doubt on it – if Monty and I agree then this surely must be conclusive and absolute proof.

The reason I think many people are reluctant to accept Long’s story is because the timing does not seem to make sense.
I keep saying that we should not try to read into the mind of a serial killer as we cannot hope to fathom why he would have chosen to do various things.

However if he went to a local bolt hole with a largish piece of bloody cloth, why would ne re-emerge so soon after from this place of safety? He would probably been concerned that he would be stepping back into a hot spot when the hue and cry would logically have risen. This would have been an incredible risk to take.
Also the bolt hole he retreated to would have to have been very private. He must have escaped notice going in and out particularly given that he had about his person a large piece cloth that was covered in wet blood and faeces.
The bolt hole must have been one that allowed him to go in and out without drawing attention to himself. This could not have been the Victoria Home.

[harry]

Abby,
We shouldn't accept that everything of an historical telling has to be true.
That he had a reason to discard the apron piece is something only known to him.That he had a reason to take it is something only known to the killer.The only thing known is that it was discarded.The how,the when or the why is something that can be remarked on,but never determined as fact.I simply give my opinion.Posters may think I am wrong.I'd like for them to show I am wrong.

[harry]

Jon,
Did the killer see a policeman coming towards him? Wouldn't the policeman then see the killer.No policeman reports seeing spmeone.

[Monty]

I think we do have grounds for believing that PC Long was incorrect in stating that the apron was not in place at 2.20 am.

• The night of the ‘Double Event’ was Long’s first on the beat in the East End, as he had just been seconded from A Division to beef up the police manpower as a result of the Ripper scare.
Accordingly he would have been unfamiliar with his beat, and could well have resented being there and so been less than attentive to his duties. Though this would not be something he would admit to at an inquest.

• Less than a year later Long was dismissed from the police for being drunk on duty, so he was not an exemplary officer.

• Long discovered the apron at about 2.55 am, but he said he only found out about the murder in Mitre Square after this. The murder was discovered at 1.45 am and Long found out about it at about 3.00 am, presumably from PC 190H who was the next policeman to arrive at Goulston Street.
It seems strange that it took an hour and fifteen minutes for Long to become aware of a murder that was committed just 500 yards away from his beat. I think this is suggestive that he skiving during that period.

• Long said he passed down Goulston Street at 2.20 am, the same time that Halse says he was in Goulston Street. But they did not see each other. It could be that their timings were out, or perhaps Long was not there.

F**k me...we are in agreement.

May I add Longs phaffing around at court re the writings transcription. And the fact he didnt bring his notebook to court.

Monty

[Sherlock Holmes]

One thing that always bothers me about our killer is that if he was local living right in the centre of the murders then why wasn't there more murders.If all he had to do was grab his knife open his front door turn left or right and then walk into an area full of easy prey then why wasn't there a murder every night.Could it be that he wasn't local at all but travelled to the area to commit his foul deeds.

What Pinkmoon is suggesting may be possible, however, I believe that he was a local of the area, and certainly not a spur of the moment killer. Serial killers don't commit crimes of opportunity, sure there may not be much planning involved but they are never just "spur of the moment". Crimes like this however unplanned, are thought, and stew inside the killer before he acts.
Regards Mr Holmes

[Wickerman]

If the piece of apron had been dropped,it would likely have landed on the pavement.Had it been thrown it would probably have ended on the floor further into the building.Why not just drop it into the gutter?Why choose an entrance to a building to dispose of it?It was going to be noticed whatever.It was no less a help wherever it landed.I think it was discarded without thought .It has no relation to anything,only the killer having passed that way.

If you were carrying something incriminating, and you saw a constable coming towards you in the distance, would you just drop it, or cast it into the nearest dark passage?

[Wickerman]

Wickerman
True, I guess it is possible the killer was looking for another victim to make it a triple event.
I guess it is possible that rather that walk off to a safer location (as for example the distance between Berner Street and Mitre Square), he lingered in the near vicinity for this third victim.
Possible, but I would tend to regard this explanation as being extremely unlikely.

I would suggest that the PC Spicer story should be treated with caution and I personally would not be inclined to use it as supporting evidence.

Absolutely, my intent was to remind people that there is an alternate consideration that cannot be easily ruled out. We do tend to ignore Spicer's story, but that in itself is not sufficient reason to rule it out.
Some will ignore anything that causes a wrinkle in their theory.

The apparent ‘freshness’ of the graffiti was attested to by PC Halse.

Yes, but just because he said it, doesn't mean he had some magic method of deducing the freshness of chalk dust. To put it simply, Halse was guessing.

Thinking that the killer would have certainly written any chalked message in a large script is another instance of presuming that we can understand exactly what was going on in his mind when (if) he wrote it.

We can assume he wanted people to read it, therefore it is not unreasonable to expect him to make it large enough to be readable from some distance.

I think we do have grounds for believing that PC Long was incorrect in stating that the apron was not in place at 2.20 am.

• The night of the ‘Double Event’ was Long’s first on the beat in the East End, as he had just been seconded from A Division to beef up the police manpower as a result of the Ripper scare.
Accordingly he would have been unfamiliar with his beat, and could well have resented being there and so been less than attentive to his duties. Though this would not be something he would admit to at an inquest.

Are you suggesting there were no doorways, vestibules, and alleyways on his home beat? That, just because he is drafted into another street he will automatically forget what he has been doing every other night?

• Less than a year later Long was dismissed from the police for being drunk on duty, so he was not an exemplary officer.

Yes, Ben has already tried to pull that stunt, as if anything that happened the following year has anything to do with Sept 30th 1888.
This is just a character attack, and plenty of policemen developed drinking problems. Are you saying that Long was not an exemplary officer in Sept. 1888?
If so, how do you know this?

• Long discovered the apron at about 2.55 am, but he said he only found out about the murder in Mitre Square after this. The murder was discovered at 1.45 am and Long found out about it at about 3.00 am, presumably from PC 190H who was the next policeman to arrive at Goulston Street.
It seems strange that it took an hour and fifteen minutes for Long to become aware of a murder that was committed just 500 yards away from his beat. I think this is suggestive that he skiving during that period.

I think you are guessing.

• Long said he passed down Goulston Street at 2.20 am, the same time that Halse says he was in Goulston Street. But they did not see each other. It could be that their timings were out, or perhaps Long was not there.

Perhaps PC Long was doing his job and checking inside these dwellings when Halse passed?

[Roy Corduroy]

That's good, Abby. But what if you've got the key part backwards. What if Jack the Ripper were Jewish. Then the statement he chalks up by his trophy makes sense. And this tableu confirms he's not only a psychopath but is up to no good vis a vis his coreligionists, leaving it there and all.

Thinking Joe Lis (Silver) here.

Roy

[Abby Normal]

If the piece of apron had been dropped,it would likely have landed on the pavement.Had it been thrown it would probably have ended on the floor further into the building.Why not just drop it into the gutter?Why choose an entrance to a building to dispose of it?It was going to be noticed whatever.It was no less a help wherever it landed.I think it was discarded without thought .It has no relation to anything,only the killer having passed that way.

Except for the fact that it was a large very visable white piece of bloody apron from a victim that had just been violently killed and mutilated only a few minutes away and on a back alley route back into the hear,t of whitechapel found in the doorway of a jewish building DIRECTLY underneath some graffiti that said something about Jews ,that the later Jewish witnesses confirmed that the suspect knew he had been seen by Jews, that the pc on route claimed was not there just a half hour earlier, and that the police at the the time thought was so controversial that they thought that they had to eradicate it for fear of a riot against Jews who were prevelant and hated by the local native populace.

Conclusion: local, violent, angry, intelligent, preplanning serial killer who knew exactly what he was doing and why, at least in his own mind.

[Abby Normal]

Pc long said emphatically that the apron was not there the first time around. Under oath. Unless their is some evidence to the contrary then we must as historians and amateur arm chair sleuths assume he was correct. Therefor if the apron was not there then there is only one conclusion to draw from this-namely there is more time to be accounted for as to why it took so long to get there as it should have only taken minutes to go directly from mitre square to Goulston street.



so where was the ripper in this 35-45 or so minutes?


Where was he?


Not hanging around on the streets. Not on his way back home on the 2:05 to Blackburn dripping with kidney.
He was there somewhere. close. In whitechapel. Back to his bolt hole to calm down drop off the goodies, perhaps a snort of gin. And then knowing his goodies are secure to head back out for a little mischief and misdirection against those ******* Jews who kept interrupting him and those clever police who he kept hearing were on the right track.