BSM & Sailor Man : one and the same ?

[Bridewell]

Sorry, my words Bridewell. This is how I would describe a fellow roughing up a woman, yelling at a Jew and likely drunk……..

No apology needed and my post was a trifle sarcastic anyway, so thanks for the restraint! There is doubt, is there not, as to whether it was BS Man or Pipeman who shouted 'Lipski'? Therefore all we have, for certain, is a man throwing a woman to the floor which, I suspect, doesn't conflict with what Lawende's man, at some point, did to Eddowes.

Also y'all, remember that Levy said the dude stand about 3 inches higher
that the woman, even though of course he didn't see him...!

I don't actually have a problem with this. Levy only needs to have seen the two figures in silhouette to determine which of the two was the taller, and by how much.

[GregBaron]

Strangers in the Night...

No apology needed and my post was a trifle sarcastic anyway, so thanks for the restraint! There is doubt, is there not, as to whether it was BS Man or Pipeman who shouted 'Lipski'? Therefore all we have, for certain, is a man throwing a woman to the floor which, I suspect, doesn't conflict with what Lawende's man, at some point, did to Eddowes.

True Bridewell, this might suggest the dual approach favored by Westcott and others. He likes LeGrand, I think, as the director from the shadows...

No problem on the sarcasm, I admit to being prone to purple prose. I think I've read too much 19th century fiction...

I don't actually have a problem with this. Levy only needs to have seen the two figures in silhouette to determine which of the two was the taller, and by how much.

This could also be true certainly. But there's something mysterious in Levy's behavior and Lawende comes up with a pretty good description of one he couldn't recognize again.

Perhaps it was the dim lighting and more of a snapshot of only the clothes...?


Greg

[GregBaron]

Banging the Bishop...

Hmm, I think the same was said of Aaron Kosminski. But what's the alternative? (heh-heh)

I think I just got this joke Lynn...I never thought the idea would escalate to auto-eroticism...

Somehow I suspect Jack (or Jacks) didn't play well with others either...


Greg

[DVV]

But there's something mysterious in Levy's behavior and Lawende comes up with a pretty good description of one he couldn't recognize again.
Greg

Hi Greg,

that's right - and important.
(And while I'm here, I must say I've enjoyed all Bridewell's posts on this thread.)

Cheers

[Bridewell]

Hi Greg,

that's right - and important.
(And while I'm here, I must say I've enjoyed all Bridewell's posts on this thread.)

Cheers

Thank-you most kindly!

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jonathan

You have it backwards, Wickerman.
Sadler looked nothing like the man Lawende decribed, except that he was a Gentile -- and even better he was a sailor.

Interestingly, or maybe not ... Sadler`s wife noted that in 1888 her Tom didn`t have a beard and sported a fair moustache.

[Michael W Richards]

I would say that based on the witnesses account, and the timing he provided, and the fact that he could not identify the man within 2 weeks, and the fact that if the sighting time was accurate and it was indeed Kate then the overall time allowance for getting her into the square, killing her, cutting her open, taking organs, severing her colon, cutting her face, cutting the apron section and getting out of there before Harvey checks the square at 12:42 or :43, and before Watkins enters the square at approx 12:45, must be a total of less than 8 minutes......I imagine its very possible Lawende did not see Kate at all.

He only identified her by clothing...and youve all seen period images, the poor all looked very much alike...down to the aprons worn.

Cheers

[Jon Guy]

Iand getting out of there before Harvey checks the square at 12:42 or :43,

How do you know he was out of there when Harvey looked in, Mike ?

[Bridewell]

Hi Jonathan


Interestingly, or maybe not ... Sadler`s wife noted that in 1888 her Tom didn`t have a beard and sported a fair moustache.

It certainly interests me!

[Jonathan H]

Yes that's possible.

But as Sims argued Sadler was perhaps being maliciously and disgracefully railroaded by a vengeful spouse.

Lawende apparently took one look and said no.

[Wickerman]

Interestingly, or maybe not ... Sadler`s wife noted that in 1888 her Tom didn`t have a beard and sported a fair moustache.

His wife threw him under the bus?

Do you have a source for that Jon?

[Wickerman]

There doesn't appear to be any other source for the Lawende 'suspect' being described as "appearance of a sailor". These words have been sourced to Swanson but that is perhaps a mistake.

The first time this phrase is seen in print is in the Police Gazette of 19th October (so far as I can tell).

Quote:
At 1.35 a.m., 30th September, with Catherine Eddows, in Church-passage, leading to Mitre-square, where she was found murdered at 1.45 a.m., same date - A MAN, age 30, height 5 ft. 7 or 8 in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium build; dress, pepper-and-salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; appearance of a sailor.

Information to be forwarded to the Metropolitan Police Office, Great Scotland-yard, London, S.W.



However, eight days later on 27th Oct. Inspector McWilliams of the City Police wrote a report which draws attention to the fact that the police lack information on the identity of Eddowes killer:

"...except three gentlemen who were leaving the Imperial Club in Duke Street at 1.35 am and who state that to the best of their belief they saw her with a man in Church Passage at this time, but took no particular notice of them. One of the gentlemen Mr Lewend of 79 Fenchurch Street who was nearest to the man & woman & saw most of them, says he does not think he should know the man again and did not see the woman's face."

This report was not for the eyes of public so Lawende's claim was not a ruse to put the killer at ease, as some have suggested. But, there is no indication here of the depth of detail attributed to Lawende's description.


Then on 6th Nov. Swanson also writes a report cover the Mitre Sq. murder and within its contents we read:

"..Three Jews, one of whom is named Mr Lewin left a Club in Duke Street, and Mr Lamende, saw a man talking to a woman in Church Passage which leads directly to Mitre Square. The other two took but little notice and state they could not identify the man or woman, and even Mr Lamende states that he could not identify the man, but also the woman stood with her back to him, with her hand on the man's breast, he could not identify the body mutilated as it was, as that of the woman whose back he had seen, but to the best of his belief the clothing of the deceased, which was black was similar to that worn by the woman whom he had seen. and that was the full extent of his identity."


Finally, on 12th November the Daily Telegraph publish details of the suspects sought in both the Berner St. and Mitre Sq. cases. Among them we read:

"At 1.35 a.m., 30th Sept., with Catherine Eddows, in Church-passage, leading to Mitre-square, where she was found murdered at 1.45 a.m., same date, a man, age 30, height 5ft 7 or 8in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium build; dress, pepper-and-salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap, with peak of the same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; appearance of a sailor.

"Information respecting this man to be forwarded to Inspector M'William, 26, Old Jewry, London, E.C."

The description is identical as that previously published in the Police Gazette however, communication is now changed to the City Police not the Metropolitan Police.

Perhaps the attribution of the phrase "appearance of a sailor" to Swanson is only due to the fact we mostly reference the Police Gazette, whereas the possibility exists that this description actually originated with McWilliams at the Old Jewry.

It is strange though that none of these details, and no mention of "appearance of a sailor", are evident in the confidential reports written by either Inspector McWilliams or C.I Swanson.

[Damaso Marte]

Therefore all we have, for certain, is a man throwing a woman to the floor which, I suspect, doesn't conflict with what Lawende's man, at some point, did to Eddowes

It's not clear how Eddowes was subdued, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any evidence that she was "thrown" in a violent manner.

The C3 appear to have been lowered to the ground calmly.

[Bridewell]

It's not clear how Eddowes was subdued, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any evidence that she was "thrown" in a violent manner.

Or any evidence that she wasn't. Eddowes had no injuries to the back of the head to suggest that she was thrown, but then Stride had no such injuries and, according to Schwartz, she was thrown.

The C3 appear to have been lowered to the ground calmly

What do you mean by C3? MacNaghten's claim of five victims and five only gave rise to the concept of a 'canonical five'. Whether of not we like the phrase, I don't think we (any of us) can retrospectively change the number and put the word 'canonical' in front of it.

[Jonathan H]

It was Macnaghten finding Druitt in about 1891 which -- rightly or wrongly -- locked in the so-called canonical five, not the other way round.

This is not well understood here because in his Report(s) Mac, for political and propagandist reasons, made it seem the other way round (he conceded the truth in his memoirs).