BSM & Sailor Man : one and the same ?

[Wickerman]

Much appreciated Jon, thankyou.

[Jon Guy]

Sadler with fair moustache

Hi Jon

Do you have a source for that Jon?

It`s the Sheffield & Rotherham Independent, February 20, 1891.

Located by Howard on JTR Forums: http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=18316
Post 9. Under the paragraph headed "Strange Offer"

[Hunter]

There doesn't appear to be any other source for the Lawende 'suspect' being described as "appearance of a sailor". These words have been sourced to Swanson but that is perhaps a mistake.

The Lawende reference in Swanson's Oct. 19th report would have come from reports filed by the City Police and passed onto him by McWilliam. - a description provided by Lawende himself. The same would apply to the Police Gazette notice at the same time. The fact that it was there is enough. Swanson included the City witness description to offer a comparison with the Berner Street sightings, where he appears to suggest that the man Schwartz reported to have seen accost Stride as the best match.

The later reports by both James McWilliam and Donald Swanson on Oct 29 and Nov. 6 respectively, were the result of the Home Office's fishing for information regarding the - by that time - controversy involving the removal by Warren of the graffito in Goulston St. The witness descriptions of the man at the entrance to Mitre Square were already common knowledge at that point and did not need repeating in detail. Both Swanson and McWilliam chose to offer a general summary of the events and investigation up to that time which included the Goulston St. incident and the Lusk letter and kidney. Certainly, the HO preferred a more detailed report from McWilliam, but he was actually not obligated to provide them anything since they had no jurisdiction over his department.

[Wickerman]

Hello Dave.

Hi Jon

Much as I disagree with you sometimes, ...

You do?
Well,.... I'm glad you're not feeling left out

Have a great weekend Dave.

[Cogidubnus]

Just to clarify, Im referring to the "I am not a number!" aspect of Jon's post

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Jon

Much as I disagree with you sometimes, , on this we're very much singing from the same hymnsheet...

All the very best

Dave

[Wickerman]

Which is part of why many of us don't find Schwartz credible.



Anytime I use a variant of "C5" with fewer numbers, I refer to the subtraction from the C5 of some victims, in the order of controversy.

Hence C4 = the C5 without the victim most rejected by people on this forum. C3 = the C5 without the two victims most rejected by people on this forum, etc.

Hence, C4 = minus stride, C3 = minus stride and kelly, C2 = minus stride, kelly, and eddowes.

I think it's a useful shorthand.

If you just hold your breath, and listen for a moment .......you will hear a faint whisper from the grave. ....."I am not a number!"

There is a certain dehumanizing aspect when we avoid using their names.

[Damaso Marte]

Or any evidence that she wasn't. Eddowes had no injuries to the back of the head to suggest that she was thrown, but then Stride had no such injuries and, according to Schwartz, she was thrown.

Which is part of why many of us don't find Schwartz credible.

What do you mean by C3? MacNaghten's claim of five victims and five only gave rise to the concept of a 'canonical five'. Whether of not we like the phrase, I don't think we (any of us) can retrospectively change the number and put the word 'canonical' in front of it.

Anytime I use a variant of "C5" with fewer numbers, I refer to the subtraction from the C5 of some victims, in the order of controversy.

Hence C4 = the C5 without the victim most rejected by people on this forum. C3 = the C5 without the two victims most rejected by people on this forum, etc.

Hence, C4 = minus stride, C3 = minus stride and kelly, C2 = minus stride, kelly, and eddowes.

I think it's a useful shorthand.

[Jonathan H]

It was Macnaghten finding Druitt in about 1891 which -- rightly or wrongly -- locked in the so-called canonical five, not the other way round.

This is not well understood here because in his Report(s) Mac, for political and propagandist reasons, made it seem the other way round (he conceded the truth in his memoirs).

[Bridewell]

It's not clear how Eddowes was subdued, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any evidence that she was "thrown" in a violent manner.

Or any evidence that she wasn't. Eddowes had no injuries to the back of the head to suggest that she was thrown, but then Stride had no such injuries and, according to Schwartz, she was thrown.

The C3 appear to have been lowered to the ground calmly

What do you mean by C3? MacNaghten's claim of five victims and five only gave rise to the concept of a 'canonical five'. Whether of not we like the phrase, I don't think we (any of us) can retrospectively change the number and put the word 'canonical' in front of it.

[Damaso Marte]

Therefore all we have, for certain, is a man throwing a woman to the floor which, I suspect, doesn't conflict with what Lawende's man, at some point, did to Eddowes

It's not clear how Eddowes was subdued, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any evidence that she was "thrown" in a violent manner.

The C3 appear to have been lowered to the ground calmly.

[Wickerman]

There doesn't appear to be any other source for the Lawende 'suspect' being described as "appearance of a sailor". These words have been sourced to Swanson but that is perhaps a mistake.

The first time this phrase is seen in print is in the Police Gazette of 19th October (so far as I can tell).

Quote:
At 1.35 a.m., 30th September, with Catherine Eddows, in Church-passage, leading to Mitre-square, where she was found murdered at 1.45 a.m., same date - A MAN, age 30, height 5 ft. 7 or 8 in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium build; dress, pepper-and-salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap with peak of same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; appearance of a sailor.

Information to be forwarded to the Metropolitan Police Office, Great Scotland-yard, London, S.W.



However, eight days later on 27th Oct. Inspector McWilliams of the City Police wrote a report which draws attention to the fact that the police lack information on the identity of Eddowes killer:

"...except three gentlemen who were leaving the Imperial Club in Duke Street at 1.35 am and who state that to the best of their belief they saw her with a man in Church Passage at this time, but took no particular notice of them. One of the gentlemen Mr Lewend of 79 Fenchurch Street who was nearest to the man & woman & saw most of them, says he does not think he should know the man again and did not see the woman's face."

This report was not for the eyes of public so Lawende's claim was not a ruse to put the killer at ease, as some have suggested. But, there is no indication here of the depth of detail attributed to Lawende's description.


Then on 6th Nov. Swanson also writes a report cover the Mitre Sq. murder and within its contents we read:

"..Three Jews, one of whom is named Mr Lewin left a Club in Duke Street, and Mr Lamende, saw a man talking to a woman in Church Passage which leads directly to Mitre Square. The other two took but little notice and state they could not identify the man or woman, and even Mr Lamende states that he could not identify the man, but also the woman stood with her back to him, with her hand on the man's breast, he could not identify the body mutilated as it was, as that of the woman whose back he had seen, but to the best of his belief the clothing of the deceased, which was black was similar to that worn by the woman whom he had seen. and that was the full extent of his identity."


Finally, on 12th November the Daily Telegraph publish details of the suspects sought in both the Berner St. and Mitre Sq. cases. Among them we read:

"At 1.35 a.m., 30th Sept., with Catherine Eddows, in Church-passage, leading to Mitre-square, where she was found murdered at 1.45 a.m., same date, a man, age 30, height 5ft 7 or 8in., complexion fair, moustache fair, medium build; dress, pepper-and-salt colour loose jacket, grey cloth cap, with peak of the same material, reddish neckerchief tied in knot; appearance of a sailor.

"Information respecting this man to be forwarded to Inspector M'William, 26, Old Jewry, London, E.C."

The description is identical as that previously published in the Police Gazette however, communication is now changed to the City Police not the Metropolitan Police.

Perhaps the attribution of the phrase "appearance of a sailor" to Swanson is only due to the fact we mostly reference the Police Gazette, whereas the possibility exists that this description actually originated with McWilliams at the Old Jewry.

It is strange though that none of these details, and no mention of "appearance of a sailor", are evident in the confidential reports written by either Inspector McWilliams or C.I Swanson.

[Wickerman]

Interestingly, or maybe not ... Sadler`s wife noted that in 1888 her Tom didn`t have a beard and sported a fair moustache.

His wife threw him under the bus?

Do you have a source for that Jon?

[Jonathan H]

Yes that's possible.

But as Sims argued Sadler was perhaps being maliciously and disgracefully railroaded by a vengeful spouse.

Lawende apparently took one look and said no.

[Bridewell]

Hi Jonathan


Interestingly, or maybe not ... Sadler`s wife noted that in 1888 her Tom didn`t have a beard and sported a fair moustache.

It certainly interests me!