BSM & Sailor Man : one and the same ?

[Jon Guy]

Iand getting out of there before Harvey checks the square at 12:42 or :43,

How do you know he was out of there when Harvey looked in, Mike ?

[Michael W Richards]

I would say that based on the witnesses account, and the timing he provided, and the fact that he could not identify the man within 2 weeks, and the fact that if the sighting time was accurate and it was indeed Kate then the overall time allowance for getting her into the square, killing her, cutting her open, taking organs, severing her colon, cutting her face, cutting the apron section and getting out of there before Harvey checks the square at 12:42 or :43, and before Watkins enters the square at approx 12:45, must be a total of less than 8 minutes......I imagine its very possible Lawende did not see Kate at all.

He only identified her by clothing...and youve all seen period images, the poor all looked very much alike...down to the aprons worn.

Cheers

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jonathan

You have it backwards, Wickerman.
Sadler looked nothing like the man Lawende decribed, except that he was a Gentile -- and even better he was a sailor.

Interestingly, or maybe not ... Sadler`s wife noted that in 1888 her Tom didn`t have a beard and sported a fair moustache.

[Bridewell]

Hi Greg,

that's right - and important.
(And while I'm here, I must say I've enjoyed all Bridewell's posts on this thread.)

Cheers

Thank-you most kindly!

[DVV]

But there's something mysterious in Levy's behavior and Lawende comes up with a pretty good description of one he couldn't recognize again.
Greg

Hi Greg,

that's right - and important.
(And while I'm here, I must say I've enjoyed all Bridewell's posts on this thread.)

Cheers

[GregBaron]

Banging the Bishop...

Hmm, I think the same was said of Aaron Kosminski. But what's the alternative? (heh-heh)

I think I just got this joke Lynn...I never thought the idea would escalate to auto-eroticism...

Somehow I suspect Jack (or Jacks) didn't play well with others either...


Greg

[GregBaron]

Strangers in the Night...

No apology needed and my post was a trifle sarcastic anyway, so thanks for the restraint! There is doubt, is there not, as to whether it was BS Man or Pipeman who shouted 'Lipski'? Therefore all we have, for certain, is a man throwing a woman to the floor which, I suspect, doesn't conflict with what Lawende's man, at some point, did to Eddowes.

True Bridewell, this might suggest the dual approach favored by Westcott and others. He likes LeGrand, I think, as the director from the shadows...

No problem on the sarcasm, I admit to being prone to purple prose. I think I've read too much 19th century fiction...

I don't actually have a problem with this. Levy only needs to have seen the two figures in silhouette to determine which of the two was the taller, and by how much.

This could also be true certainly. But there's something mysterious in Levy's behavior and Lawende comes up with a pretty good description of one he couldn't recognize again.

Perhaps it was the dim lighting and more of a snapshot of only the clothes...?


Greg

[Bridewell]

Sorry, my words Bridewell. This is how I would describe a fellow roughing up a woman, yelling at a Jew and likely drunk……..

No apology needed and my post was a trifle sarcastic anyway, so thanks for the restraint! There is doubt, is there not, as to whether it was BS Man or Pipeman who shouted 'Lipski'? Therefore all we have, for certain, is a man throwing a woman to the floor which, I suspect, doesn't conflict with what Lawende's man, at some point, did to Eddowes.

Also y'all, remember that Levy said the dude stand about 3 inches higher
that the woman, even though of course he didn't see him...!

I don't actually have a problem with this. Levy only needs to have seen the two figures in silhouette to determine which of the two was the taller, and by how much.

[lynn cates]

play time

Hello Greg. Thanks.

"I was one of those in kindergarten who they said “does not play
well with others” "

Hmm, I think the same was said of Aaron Kosminski. But what's the alternative? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

5'3" to 5'11"...

Remind me. Which witness alluded to a staggering lunatic?

Sorry, my words Bridewell. This is how I would describe a fellow roughing up a woman, yelling at a Jew and likely drunk……..

Oh, come now. Do play along. This is ripperology.

Sorry Lynn, I was one of those in kindergarten who they said “does not play
well with others”….

Hyperbole aside-absolutely. Pretty much anyone can go from being violently angry to calm in a matter of minutes let alone 45 minutes. And psychopath serial killers? Probably could do it in seconds. They are chameleons by nature.

I can accept this Abby, it still seems incongruous…

Also y'all, remember that Levy said the dude stand about 3 inches higher
that the woman, even though of course he didn't see him...!


Greg

[DVV]

Hi Damaso Marte

For sure, Joseph was drunk that night.

Cheers

[Damaso Marte]

Yes, there is more than enough similarity between BS and "sailor man" to infer than the two may have been the same man. The height, age, headgear, "jacket" are perfectly compatible. Schwartz appeared to have paid more attention to features, whereas Lawende focussed more specifically on clothing. A "sailor-like" peaked cap would be more noteworthy in the City as opposed to Berner Street near the docklands, where sailor-like men were two-a-penny
Ben

Why the change in MO, then? If one accepts BSM as Stride's killer, one has to either drop Stride as a Ripper victim or have a good explanation.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I'm really not sure what you mean when you say that no "corroboration" exists for Lawende having described a man with a sailor-like appearance. If the detail appeared in both a police report and a police-press release (Police Gazette), what more corroboration do we need? There is absolutely no way that a sailor-like appearance would find its way into a police report (City or Met, it matters not) unless the witness in question had relayed as much to the police. And it was Lawende, incidentally. Harris made it quite clear that he got no description of the man.

All the best,
Ben

Which police report are you referring to Ben?

[Jonathan H]

You have it backwards, Wickerman.

Sadler looked nothing like the man Lawende decribed, except that he was a Gentile -- and even better he was a sailor.

So get the eye-witness in here, quick smart, and not for a line-up but a one-on-one confrontation -- and hope for the best.

[Ben]

Hi Jon,

I'm really not sure what you mean when you say that no "corroboration" exists for Lawende having described a man with a sailor-like appearance. If the detail appeared in both a police report and a police-press release (Police Gazette), what more corroboration do we need? There is absolutely no way that a sailor-like appearance would find its way into a police report (City or Met, it matters not) unless the witness in question had relayed as much to the police. And it was Lawende, incidentally. Harris made it quite clear that he got no description of the man.

All the best,
Ben