Stride..a victim?

[Herlock Sholmes]

On whether you’ve suggested that Schwartz non-attendance must have been down to a lack of faith in his evidence. You said:


“Would he have been forced to attend, if there were genuine concerns about his and his family's safety if he did so? I don't know the answer, I'm merely curious.

If he is called to the inquest - which he surely was - he is legally obliged to attend.

If there were concerns over safety, there is a mechanism for dealing with this - appearance in camera.

There is no evidence that this mechanism was used, and therefore it is highly likely that Israel Schwartz dodged the inquest.

If every witness called to an inquest or court case could simply refuse to turn up on safety grounds, the entire legal system would pretty much collapse.

Given that Schwartz was happy to give an anonymous interview to the Star, the day after the murder, Schwartz himself could hardly have too many concerns about his or his family's (assuming there was one) safety - an anonymous daytime interview by a newspaper reporter, on a Whitechapel street, is hardly a high-security arrangement - either physically or in privacy terms. Compare that to an in camera appearance at an inquest, with the sort of protection available as was placed around Lawende, and any excuse for Schwartz' non-attendance simply evaporates.”

So you’re clearly dismissing all other reasons for Schwartz non-attendance.

This will probably be the last time that I bother to mention this. But I was indignantly asked by NBFN to show where he’d proposed that Schwartz non-attendance at the Inquest must have been down to the police’s loss of faith in his statement. Clearly he’s doing just that in the above quote by seeking to demonstrate how the other possible reasons can be dismissed. I’d hoped for an acknowledgment but all I’ve had is a disappearance from NBFN. Fishy118 used to do this. Likewise a couple of other posters. Most would accept their mistake.

[Michael W Richards]

The time of the murder
The location of the murder
The weapon used
Out of the canonical 5 the only murder committed South of Whitechapel Road
The neck wound was less severe than the other victims due to a smaller knife being used by the killer
Kidney had a previous conviction for assaulting Stride
Inquest testimony shows they had an argument shortly before her murder

and it is not just me that believes Stride was not a Ripper victim

Here is a quote from Stewart Evans
"‘The evidence surrounding the Stride murder is very problematical, and extremely confusing when read in full. The lasting impression is of a domestic dispute-related murder. On the Tuesday before her death, Stride walked out of the home she shared with Michael Kidney, a brutal, heavy-drinking labourer, who was known to have frequently assaulted her. The case does not bear the distinctive stamp of a Ripper killing."

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I in fact addressed Stewart years ago about this murder on this site and he gave an opinion that the times witnesses gave cannot all exist as given, and its difficult to sort out whose account has substance, and he said that he personally saw 2 or 3 murders likely connectable with the Jack the Ripper mythology.

One thing you omitted above Trevor is the circumstantial evidence as relates to her being there at that time...both her attire and consciousness of details suggest she was there to meet someone. Not soliciting. Which is what the first 2 victims admitted themselves they were doing.

Its incorrect to suggest that these five women were all similarly disposed at the time they meet their killer. And its incorrect to suggest some kind of explanatory event for the absence of anything but one single cut without any evidence of such an event in known evidence. And lastly its incorrect to naturally marry this murder with "rippings".

[Michael W Richards]

Its correct however to state categorically that Israel Schwartz and his statement were quite obviously deemed irrelevant to the question as to How Lies Dies. As it is correct to state without equivocation that his statement would have certainly had direct bearing on the question asked by the Inquest. Had it been submitted.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Illustrated Police News, Oct 20:

A NEW LIGHT ON THE CRIMES.

The Vienna correspondent of the Standard states that Dr. Bloch, a member of the Austrian Reichsrath for the Galician constituency of Kokomea, has called his attention to certain facts which may throw a new light on the Whitechapel murders, and perhaps afford some assistance in tracing the murderer. In various German criminal codes of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, as also in statutes of a more recent date, punishments are prescribed for the mutilation of female corpses with the object of making from the uterus and other organs the so-called "diebalichter" or "schlafslichter", respectively "thieves' candles" or "soporific candles." According to an old superstition, still rife in various parts of Germany, the light from such candles will throw those upon whom it falls into the deepest slumbers, and they may, consequently, become a valuable instrument to those of the thieving profession. Hence arose their name. In regard to these "schlafslichter," quite a literature might be cited. They are referred to by Ave Lallement in his "Das Deutsche Gaunerthum" published in Leipzig in 1858; by Loffler, in "Die Mangelhafte Justiz" by Thiele, and numerous others. They also played an important part in the trials of robber bands at Odenwald and in Westphalia, in the years 1812 and 1841 respectively. The "schlafslichter" were heard of, too, at the trial of the notorious German robber, Theodor Unger, surnamed "the handsome Charley," who was executed at Magdeburg in 1810. It was on that occasion discovered that a regular manufactory had been established by gangs of thieves for the production of such candles. That this superstition has survived among German thieves to the present day was proved by a case tried at Biala, in Galicia, as recently as 1875. In this the body of a woman had been found mutilated in precisely the same way as were the victims of the Whitechapel murderer. At that trial, as at one which took place subsequently at Zeszow, which is also in Galicia, and in which the accused were a certain Ritter and his wife, the prevalence among thieves of superstition was alluded to by the Public Prosecutor. In the Ritter case, however, the Court preferred harping on another alleged superstition of a ritual character among the Jews of Galicia, which, however, was shown to be a pure invention of the Judenhettzer. Dr. Bloch, who for ten years was a rabbi in Galicia and has made the superstitions of that province his special study, affirms that the "thieves' candle" superstition still exists among robbers of every confession and, as he believes, also of every nationality. He considers, however, that it prevails most among German thieves. Among other German laws where the crime in question is dealt with, the "Code Theresiana," chap. xxii., clause 59, may be referred to.

Interestingly, there were a lot of Germans at the club on double event night. Irish Times:

The club spoken of is occupied by what is known as the National Workmen's Educational Society, and is affiliated to the Socialist League, of which it is a foreign branch. Its members seem to be largely composed of Russian Jews, and Jews of other nationalities also find a welcome there. Many of them live on the premises which, however, are extensive. At the back there is a fair sized hall made by demolishing the partition between two rooms, and here on Saturday nights the members gather for the purpose of debate and amusement. Last night the debate was largely attended by Germans, nearly a hundred being at one time in the room, and the subject of discussion, which was "Is it necessary that a Jew should be a Socialist" proved so interesting that it was carried on to a late hour.

A couple of lurkers in the vicinity of the club that night, had German name origins.

Israel Schwartz
German and Jewish (Ashkenazic): nickname for someone with black hair or a dark complexion, from Middle High German swarz, German schwarz, Yiddish shvarts ‘dark’, ‘black’. This name is widespread throughout central and eastern Europe.

Joseph Koster
Dutch and North German: status name for a sexton, Middle Dutch coster(e). Compare German Kuster. North German (Köster): occupational nickname or status name for a day laborer who owned no land, from Middle Low German koster, from kossater ‘cottager’. South German: occupational name for a wine taster, from kosten ‘to taste’. Jewish (Ashkenazic): occupational name for a grocer or provisioner, from German Koster ‘provisions’, ‘foodstuffs’ + the agent suffix -er.

It seems unknown where Koster lived, although conceivably he tenanted with Mr & Mrs Kentorich, at #38.
Koster had an associate, named:

Abraham Hershberg
Americanized spelling of German or Jewish variant spelling of Herschberg (see Herschberger) or Hirschberg.

Important club members with German last names, included Wess, Krantz (variation on Kranz), and...

Morris Siegel (Eagle)
German and Jewish (Ashkenazic): metonymic occupational name for a maker of seals or signet rings, or for an official in charge of a seal, from Middle High German sigel ‘seal’. The Jewish name can also be ornamental. German: from a medieval personal name, a pet form of the various Germanic personal names formed with sigi ‘victory’ as the first element, for example Siegfried. Jewish (Ashkenazic): variant of Segal.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Out of curiosity do we no anything about another Swede living in the same lodging house as Stride?

[DJA]

Which one?

[Syclone]

I think Jack chose a good night to go on the hunt. Mr. Kidney gave him another victim. Say: "thankya", Jack.

[DJA]

Out of curiosity do we no anything about another Swede living in the same lodging house as Stride?

Apart from the slammer , Stride resided at four addresses during her last six months.

The building at 32 Flower and Dean Street was a few doors from an archway that gave free and open access through to the Jewish soup kitchen at 4 - 6 Fashion Street.



Further up Flower and Dean resided Nichols who had moved next door to Eddowes just before Kate went hopping.
Excellent chance they ran into each other when Nichols resided at 18 Thrawl Street and Eddowes was attending her sick sister at 6 Thawl Street.
Tends to confirm they knew each other as inpatients together at London Hospital from December 1867 with Rheumatic Fever.
Coincidentally Nichols was murdered near the Hospital before Eddowes returned for a reward giving her jailers the address of 6 Fashion Street and the names "nothing" and Mary Ann Kelly.
GSG was written on the way towards Dorset Street where,according to Major Henry Smith,Jack washed his hands


Sorry Herlock,the only other Swede was prolly in the soup

[Herlock Sholmes]

Cheers Dave. It was a complete stab in the dark (no joke intended) on my part due to Charles Preston who said that he’d heard Liz talking to someone in a foreign language. I wondered if she might have struck up a friendship with a fellow Swede? Kidney said that she spoke Yiddish of course so this was probably what he’d heard.

[Joshua Rogan]

The Morning Advertiser reports Preston as saying;

"The Foreman. - Did she talk much about family? - No; only occasionally she would mention some Swedish game, or talk with any Swede who might come into the lodging-house when she was there"

[DJA]

She apparently spoke Swedish fluently to people who came into the lodging-house.

[caz]

We see no evidence of two attacks on women on the same night and in close proximity to each other

Look at it another way I am playing devils advocate with regards to the suggestion that he was interrupted. He would have had to make a quick exit that might have resulted in him being seen, with that in mind and given the fact that he had carried out a murder which is what he presumably set out to do, why would he run the risk of wandering the streets looking for another victim knowing that the police would be on high alert from the discovery of Strides body ,knowing that he might have been seen, surley he would have wanted to distance himself as quickly as possible from the area.

Its not feasable to consider the sugestion that because he had been interrupted his ultimate goal had not been fulfilled. I have already stated that it would have taken a matter on moments to carry out any mutilations, and if this killer was organ harvesting surley he would not have picked this location to carry ot a murder and then remove organs

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Afternoon Trev,

I give you Ted Bundy, Leigh Thornhill and Mark Dixie as just three modern examples of double eventers, who attacked two women on the same night, after a botched or interrupted first attempt. All three used excessive violence when brutally murdering their second victim of the night. The first victim in each case was left alive to raise the alarm immediately and describe her assailant, but that didn't stop the killer 'wandering the streets' in search of another woman to attack. Thornhill had attempted to strangle his first victim, but was chased away by witnesses. Yet he remained in the same area, trawling the main road nearby, until he found a woman he could take out his frustration on, to horrific effect.

In Stride's case, the Met police would have been on high alert and occupied questioning potential witnesses on or close to Berner Street. That might explain why the second murder took place on City police turf. This was an exception for the ripper, just as much as south of the Whitechapel Road would have been. Was it purely a coincidence that the ripper went out and committed his first mutilation murder in a different police district, shortly after a third woman in a month had been found with her throat cut on Met turf? Or was there method in his madness, figuring that the City police would not be expecting him?

If the Mitre Square killer preferred to be able to mutilate his victims without fear of imminent interruption, he'd have quickly appreciated why Dutfield's Yard was not the best location for his purposes. That would apply whether he just enjoyed the mutilation process, or wanted to take away body parts if given the chance. His ability to do anything much with Stride would have been hampered, therefore, by the very fact that she was in that unsuitable location, and seemed to have no intention of going elsewhere. What would have stopped him slitting her throat in anger and frustration on hearing the pony and cart approaching, putting the kibosh on taking things any further?

Love,

Caz
X

[Bridewell]

It's not quite that simple.

Multiple members of the club spoke to the press, in English, and some of those with perfect English. For example, Joseph Lave was a Russian, recently arrived from America. Presumably he must have been in the States for a few years? Seventeen year old Isaac Kozebrodsky could speak English, passably well. So he must have been in England a few years at that stage.

Speaking in a foreign language would mean that Abberline would have missed all the nuances and hesitations in Schwartz' speech, as well as the opportunity the translator had for 'fine-tuning'. I'm surprised you seem to be ignoring this.

If the translator were Wess, we have a possible conflict of interest. Being offended at the suggestion that both he and Schwartz lied, isn't going to remove that possibility.

Why do you suppose the Leman street police had doubts about Schwartz' story by Oct 2? Surely there was no reason to give up on identifying either man (BS & pipeman) that early, and yet they seem to have done just that! Their doubts must have been more fundamental. Why?

I'm not ignoring the possibility that a translator fine-tuned the account. I am just seeking evidence that it is so rather than supposition. Such evidence as we have suggests that Schwartz was a recent arrival in the UK and therefore probably spoke little or no English. That is what the evidence shows and I move forward from that, The claim that Schwartz spoke good English is conclusion-led and not supported by the evidence. It is as simple as that. I respect your right to an opinion on the matter but not to the extent of not having one of my own which, to my mind, is better supported by the evidence. Stay Safe!

[Trevor Marriott]

Afternoon Trev,

I give you Ted Bundy, Leigh Thornhill and Mark Dixie as just three modern examples of double eventers, who attacked two women on the same night, after a botched or interrupted first attempt. All three used excessive violence when brutally murdering their second victim of the night. The first victim in each case was left alive to raise the alarm immediately and describe her assailant, but that didn't stop the killer 'wandering the streets' in search of another woman to attack. Thornhill had attempted to strangle his first victim, but was chased away by witnesses. Yet he remained in the same area, trawling the main road nearby, until he found a woman he could take out his frustration on, to horrific effect.

In Stride's case, the Met police would have been on high alert and occupied questioning potential witnesses on or close to Berner Street. That might explain why the second murder took place on City police turf. This was an exception for the ripper, just as much as south of the Whitechapel Road would have been. Was it purely a coincidence that the ripper went out and committed his first mutilation murder in a different police district, shortly after a third woman in a month had been found with her throat cut on Met turf? Or was there method in his madness, figuring that the City police would not be expecting him?

If the Mitre Square killer preferred to be able to mutilate his victims without fear of imminent interruption, he'd have quickly appreciated why Dutfield's Yard was not the best location for his purposes. That would apply whether he just enjoyed the mutilation process, or wanted to take away body parts if given the chance. His ability to do anything much with Stride would have been hampered, therefore, by the very fact that she was in that unsuitable location, and seemed to have no intention of going elsewhere. What would have stopped him slitting her throat in anger and frustration on hearing the pony and cart approaching, putting the kibosh on taking things any further?

Love,

Caz
X

Caz
I was referring to 1888 not 21st Century serial killers, as i have always said you cannot compare 20th century serial killers to a 1888 serial killer, and I am right am I not that there is no evidence from 1888 or the years before or after that two murders occurred on the same night which were belived to have been committed by the same person.

With the Stride murder there are so many differences between her murder and the rest in the series suggesting to me she was not killed by the same hand as the rest.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Varqm]

Caz
I was referring to 1888 not 21st Century serial killers, as i have always said you cannot compare 20th century serial killers to a 1888 serial killer, and I am right am I not that there is no evidence from 1888 or the years before or after that two murders occurred on the same night which were belived to have been committed by the same person.

With the Stride murder there are so many differences between her murder and the rest in the series suggesting to me she was not killed by the same hand as the rest.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

What applied to Nichols does not apply to Stride? Both times the killer was disturbed and could not do his "thing".And even the Frances Coles murder.
This is also possible and this is what I believe,that the ripper was going to escape to the City Aldgate/Portsoken area and happen upon Eddowes who was just released from jail and was walking down Houndsditch per PC George Hutt. This is the only city and double murder by the ripper.