Stride..a victim?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

To me, that indicates a killer who knew where to cut Stride's throat, even in the darkness, to inflict a fatal wound. Not someone known to her, who had never cut a throat before, and just crossed his fingers that she wouldn't live long enough to tell the tale.

That would seem to count out Kidney.
So who and where were the quarreling couple, that the witness supposed were husband and wife? Apparently the woman was Liz Stride.
Who was the witness, if not Schwartz? If it were IS, where is the husband and wife detail coming from? Abberline's interview?

But in my suggested scenario, the promise would have been that if Stride agreed to leave the yard with him and go somewhere more private, he would pay her before receiving her services there. I can't believe I'm having to explain this.

Because unless it has some relation to the facts, it's just another soon to be forgotten story.

But how can anyone possibly know either way? Are violent killers excused a breaking point, which would be reached if things didn't go their way?

Church Passage Man is not reactive - he's in control. This is another reason for not believing Schwartz - BS Man is the polar opposite.

I have no idea why she was there. But her killer may have assumed the reason and she may have died as a result - whoever he was.

The wider context can't be ignored. She's in a non-prostitute area, with no money on her, 5 or 6 hours after leaving the lodging house.
She's dressed to go out. She's eaten a good meal. She's been seen being kissed by one or more men.
What possible reason does she have for being anywhere near Dutfield's Yard?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If Schwartz's account is accepted she did just that - she screamed - three times but not very loudly.

Schwartz' oxymoron is very odd, and not just because of the uncanny resemblance of it to - number one squealed a bit couldn't finish straight off - and Schwartz running away from the scene.
Schwartz also seems to be explaining why no one heard these three screams, but then needing to put a gentile in the role of Stride's attacker, comes up with the 'Lipski!' bit.
This completely contradicts the reason for the screams not being heard.
Schwartz' story is a mess, and clearly fake.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Again (if the Schwartz account is accepted) we can see an interruption if in fact what he saw was the beginning of a JtR attack. In that scenario he was the interruption - not Diemschutz who arrived some minutes later and after the deed was done.

If you argue for an interrupted JtR attack, why go with Diemschutz rather than Schwartz?

Indeed.

Mrs. Diemschitz: Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened. I inquired what was the matter, but all he did was to excitedly ask for a match or candle, as there was a body in the yard. The door had been, and still was, half open, and through the aperture the light from the gas jets in the kitchen was streaming out into the yard. I at once complied with his request and gave him some matches. He then rushed out into the yard, and I followed him to the doorway, where I remained. Just by the door I saw a pool of blood, and when my husband struck a light I noticed a dark lump lying under the wall. I at once recognised it as the body of a woman, while, to add to my horror, I saw a stream of blood trickling down the yard, and terminating in the pool I had first noticed. She was lying on her back with her head against the wall, and the face looked ghastly. I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard. When my husband examined the body he found that life, so far as he could tell, was quite extinct. He at once sent for a policeman. He is positive that before entering the yard he did not see any man about the street.

How did the blood get to the door so quickly?
Why didn't Louis see a man on the street, or leaving the yard?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I still find it hard to believe that the ripper would have drawn attention to himself by attacking a victim in that way.

If by that you mean Schwartz' first man was not her killer, with the second man we then have two men who could not be identified, as part of the biggest manhunt in history.
We also have no one in Berner St or the nearby vicinity, seeing or hearing any of the detail given by Schwartz, in either of his accounts.
Shortly afterwards, Schwartz himself is never seen or heard from again, in any official capacity.

Apparently, very few people find any of this in the least bit suspicious.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Indeed.

Mrs. Diemschitz: Just about one o'clock on Sunday morning I was in the kitchen on the ground floor of the club, and close to the side entrance, serving tea and coffee for the members who were singing upstairs. Up till then I had not heard a sound-not even a whisper. Then suddenly I saw my husband enter, looking very scared and frightened. I inquired what was the matter, but all he did was to excitedly ask for a match or candle, as there was a body in the yard. The door had been, and still was, half open, and through the aperture the light from the gas jets in the kitchen was streaming out into the yard. I at once complied with his request and gave him some matches. He then rushed out into the yard, and I followed him to the doorway, where I remained. Just by the door I saw a pool of blood, and when my husband struck a light I noticed a dark lump lying under the wall. I at once recognised it as the body of a woman, while, to add to my horror, I saw a stream of blood trickling down the yard, and terminating in the pool I had first noticed. She was lying on her back with her head against the wall, and the face looked ghastly. I screamed out in fright, and the members of the club, hearing my cries, rushed downstairs in a body out into the yard. When my husband examined the body he found that life, so far as he could tell, was quite extinct. He at once sent for a policeman. He is positive that before entering the yard he did not see any man about the street.

How did the blood get to the door so quickly?
Why didn't Louis see a man on the street, or leaving the yard?

Perhaps the killer had hidden behind the gate then left when Diemschutz went inside?

[Herlock Sholmes]

If by that you mean Schwartz' first man was not her killer, with the second man we then have two men who could not be identified, as part of the biggest manhunt in history.
We also have no one in Berner St or the nearby vicinity, seeing or hearing any of the detail given by Schwartz, in either of his accounts.
Shortly afterwards, Schwartz himself is never seen or heard from again, in any official capacity.

Apparently, very few people find any of this in the least bit suspicious.

I don't find it strange that no one else saw or heard this confrontation as it would have taken a matter of seconds and if no one was in the street at the time.

I do find it strange that Schwartz wasn't called to the Inquest.

[Observer]

Yep.
Nope.
BS Man was her body guard.He returned to get her away from the yard's entrance,gave up and went home.Then Dubya man came down.
We have conflicting sightings.
Reckon the baker's clock stopped @ 1 pm the previous arvo and was rewound (Sunday or ) Monday morning when opening for business.
Currently,I'm guessing at ~ 12.35 am for the cachous,bruise and neck cut.Then he was headed back to 6 Mitre Street,his home away from home.

So no one was working in the shop when the clock stopped at 1 pm on the Saturday afternoon? Also such clocks, work clocks, clocks on public display, were invariably regularly wound. It's a neat little idea for a film script, or a novel, a far cry from reality though.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Perhaps the killer had hidden behind the gate then left when Diemschutz went inside?

Do you mean the few inches between the gate and wall?

Stride's boots may have been tucked behind the gate, but no man was.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't find it strange that no one else saw or heard this confrontation as it would have taken a matter of seconds and if no one was in the street at the time.

Actually, 'a matter of seconds' is irrelevant. Ears were available. The Star:

A woman living just opposite says that she was waiting up for her husband and listening for his coming, and she heard nothing to arouse her suspicion.

Then there was Fanny Mortimer.

So when did the Schwartz event occur? When did Smith go by and return? When was Mortimer on her doorstep?

This is were a non-existent timeline works wonders for the Interruptionists - they get to assume whatever they like, and when pressed on a timeline, admit that 'it's a difficult problem', by which they mean 'someone else's problem'.

I do find it strange that Schwartz wasn't called to the Inquest.

Schwartz was called - but he wasn't available to attend. That didn't stop senior investigators from pretended he had, though.

[Michael W Richards]

Again (if the Schwartz account is accepted) we can see an interruption if in fact what he saw was the beginning of a JtR attack. In that scenario he was the interruption - not Diemschutz who arrived some minutes later and after the deed was done.

If you argue for an interrupted JtR attack, why go with Diemschutz rather than Schwartz?

Well, thats another moot point Bridewell, because we are not obliged to accept that the authorities felt he was truthful, there is no reason to exclude his story from an investigation into how she dies if "accepted". The premise offered by Schwartz would seem to indicate that he saw the beginning of her end, and most probably delivered by the gentile, off premises surly man he claims was accosting her. That a direct link from Israel to that specific club is found in later records would indicate that he may well have had some connection with it in 1888, even that night..maybe just for the meeting.

I agree with DJA on his post #359, well maybe not that she was ever being pulled out from alley, but its someone off the street and from in and around that club. We have in fact witnesses stating that at around 12:40 they were by the dying woman, with Louis and Issac present. We also hear from Eagle and Lave that they were there..not that they saw anything of course, why would they...both are directly associated with the club. The statements from the other 4 men are from a 17year old...roughly..apprentice at the club, 2 members who were upstairs, and someone who saw Jews running for help on the street. Which of course means the discovery took place earlier than 12:40. Liz is out of sight after 12:35, I dont see a problem with the cart and horse arrival being an interruption, I dont see a reason to suspect Louis is a murderer, but I do suspect he lied about when he arrived, and that Eagle and Lave lied about what they saw and when.

The presumption here is that at around 12:35 to 12:40 Louis tries to pull into the passageway, he may have interrupted the killer.. but thats not to say we can safely assume he would have had pm mutilation on his mind, thats not indicated at all. A Few men are smoking and talking, one man is interacting with Liz, it gets aggressive and as Liz starts out from the passageway to get clear of someone who is now a threat, he grabs her scarf, pulls and twists it, as Liz is bent over awkwardly he runs a blade across her throat and lets go of the scarf. Phillips suggested the very same thing. 2 seconds. The horse appears, the man retreats back towards the club door, they hustle him inside, get people out to the yard to see to the woman, some run for help, Issac is sent out for help alone, and shortly thereafter 2 Jews run for help..encountering Spooner. Those Jews are not Issac and Louis. Spooner never identifies Diemshitz or anyone else as one of those jews. I suspect that the real killer was snuck out the front door as the gates area got busy, and its maybe him seen cleaning his knife down a street nearby later on.

The reason this murder is assumed to be one of 2 Jack murders is because of the the second assumed Jack murder, not on the evidence for this as a standalone investigation.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I still find it hard to believe that the ripper would have drawn attention to himself by attacking a victim in that way.

In other words, Schwartz' first man (broad-shoulders) was likely not the killer.

Schwartz and Pipeman leave the scene immediately.

I don't find it strange that no one else saw or heard this confrontation as it would have taken a matter of seconds and if no one was in the street at the time.

There is now nearly 15 minutes until Diemschitz arrives.

How does Herlock (or anyone else) know the confrontation between BS and Stride, only lasts a matter of seconds, if there are no witnesses to observe it?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Do you mean the few inches between the gate and wall?

Stride's boots may have been tucked behind the gate, but no man was.

Where do you get 'the few inches' from? Unless you're suggesting that the killer was a sumo wrestler I can't see the issue.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Actually, 'a matter of seconds' is irrelevant. Ears were available. The Star:

A woman living just opposite says that she was waiting up for her husband and listening for his coming, and she heard nothing to arouse her suspicion.

Then there was Fanny Mortimer.

So when did the Schwartz event occur? When did Smith go by and return? When was Mortimer on her doorstep?

This is were a non-existent timeline works wonders for the Interruptionists - they get to assume whatever they like, and when pressed on a timeline, admit that 'it's a difficult problem', by which they mean 'someone else's problem'.



Schwartz was called - but he wasn't available to attend. That didn't stop senior investigators from pretended he had, though.

The thing about screams that aren't very loud is that they are not of sufficient volume to be easily heard; as opposed to very loud screams of course

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Where do you get 'the few inches' from?

From the hinge offset typical of the vast majority of gates.

Unless you're suggesting that the killer was a sumo wrestler I can't see the issue.

Of course you can't. If you could see, you would see why your rabbit out of hat story doesn't work.

If by some some miracle the killer can squeeze into that gap, the odds of Diemschitz not noticing a man standing less than 3 feet away and probably breathing hard, when Louis strikes the match, are remote.

[Herlock Sholmes]

In other words, Schwartz' first man (broad-shoulders) was likely not the killer.

Schwartz and Pipeman leave the scene immediately.



There is now nearly 15 minutes until Diemschitz arrives.

How does Herlock (or anyone else) know the confrontation between BS and Stride, only lasts a matter of seconds, if there are no witnesses to observe it?

If the incident occurred and Schwartz witnessed it then he witnessed it on the move. He didn't pull up a chair. So how long would it have taken to walk past the gateway?