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  • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
    So, it seems that Goldstein went with Wess to the Leman Street police station on the night of 1 or 2 October, between 10 and 11 o'clock. So, the "about 1 am" in Swanson's report seems to refer to the hour at which he made his statement, rather than the hour at which he passed through Berner Street on the night of the murder or the hour at which he found out that Mrs. Mortimer had seen him. And so, as Jon writes, it was just the crooked way in which Swanson wrote.

    All the best,
    Frank
    I see I've left a mistake in the above.

    I should have written:
    So, the "about 1 am" in Swanson's report seems to refer to the hour at which he passed through Berner Street on the night of the murder, rather than the hour at which he made his statement or the hour at which he found out that Mrs. Mortimer had seen him.


    "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
    Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

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    • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
      I see I've left a mistake in the above.

      I should have written:
      So, the "about 1 am" in Swanson's report seems to refer to the hour at which he passed through Berner Street on the night of the murder, rather than the hour at which he made his statement or the hour at which he found out that Mrs. Mortimer had seen him.

      I wondered what you were drinking....
      Regards, Jon S.

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      • Click image for larger version

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        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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        • Originally posted by DJA View Post
          Click image for larger version

Name:	Canadian Club.jpg
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          Id like to use a Canadian Club on some folks here.
          Michael Richards

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          • My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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            • Courtesy of Chris Scott:

              The police report of Goldstein's visit to the police reads as follows:
              About 1 a.m. 30th. Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street, Commercial Road, called at Leman Street and stated that he was the man that passed down Berner Street with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes and that he had left a coffe house in Spectale Alley a short time before.

              The only census listing I can find of a man of the right trade is in 1891:
              55 Marine Parade, Minster, Sheppey, Kent
              Head: Joseph Phibey aged 51 born Chatham - Blacksmith
              Wife: Annie Phibey aged 50 born Commercial Road, London
              Children:
              Harry aged 16 - Printer
              Gertrude aged 12
              Florence aged 6
              Married daughter:
              Amelia Millmott aged 24
              All children born in Sheerness
              Visitor:
              Leon Goldstein aged 25 (Unmarried) born Russia - Cigarette maker


              Fanny Mortimer said it was about 12:55. Blackwell said Liz was cut as early as 12:46-12:56...and Leon carried empty cigarette cartons in his bag. So, guess who was awake in one of the passageway cottages at that time....a cigarette maker. "At that hour" isnt a time, its rounding off.
              Michael Richards

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              • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

                I wondered what you were drinking....

                Thanks, Jon!
                "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                  Courtesy of Chris Scott:

                  The police report of Goldstein's visit to the police reads as follows:
                  About 1 a.m. 30th. Leon Goldstein of 22 Christian Street, Commercial Road, called at Leman Street and stated that he was the man that passed down Berner Street with a black bag at that hour, that the bag contained empty cigarette boxes and that he had left a coffe house in Spectale Alley a short time before.

                  The only census listing I can find of a man of the right trade is in 1891:
                  55 Marine Parade, Minster, Sheppey, Kent
                  Head: Joseph Phibey aged 51 born Chatham - Blacksmith
                  Wife: Annie Phibey aged 50 born Commercial Road, London
                  Children:
                  Harry aged 16 - Printer
                  Gertrude aged 12
                  Florence aged 6
                  Married daughter:
                  Amelia Millmott aged 24
                  All children born in Sheerness
                  Visitor:
                  Leon Goldstein aged 25 (Unmarried) born Russia - Cigarette maker


                  Fanny Mortimer said it was about 12:55. Blackwell said Liz was cut as early as 12:46-12:56...and Leon carried empty cigarette cartons in his bag. So, guess who was awake in one of the passageway cottages at that time....a cigarette maker. "At that hour" isnt a time, its rounding off.
                  I'm not going to scroll back for the exact words Michael but you had said that....we know that Mortimer was on her doorstep at 12.55 because she saw Goldstein.' Words to that effect.
                  The clear implication is that Goldstein had independently and specifically said that he had walked past the club at 12.55.

                  The reason being, I said, was because if Goldstein hadn't given an independent and exact time for passing then what you would have, in effect, have been saying was....we know that Mrs Mortimer was on the step at 12.55 because she saw Goldstein pass at exactly that time and we know that he passed at that exact time because Mrs Mortimer said so.

                  And it looks like I was right.
                  Regards

                  Sir Herlock Sholmes



                  “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

                  “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

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                  • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                    They had access to a clock and yet one had to estimate that he'd been in the club for 10 minutes since 12.30. Why didn't he say "i checked the clock and it was 12.40?"

                    Was Berner Street heavy with traffic in the wee small hours? Mortimer hearing a cart was overwhelmingly likely to have been Diemschutz (who had checked the time by a clock around a minute ago )

                    This is fairly simple. The men were wrong and Diemschutz arrived at just after 1.00. Mortimer heard him. He found the body. Mortimer missed the Schwartz episode because she'd gone back inside (or she was simply a lying busybody) I find it easier to believe that someone like her might want to appear or feel important than I do to believe that Schwartz just makes up a story to place himself at the scene of a murder when he wasn't there.

                    Did they serve alcohol in the club by the way?

                    Yes, they served lager beer
                    there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

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                    • Originally posted by Robert St Devil View Post


                      Yes, they served lager beer
                      Cheers Robert

                      Then we might have three drunken witnesses who got the time wrong?
                      Regards

                      Sir Herlock Sholmes



                      “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

                      “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                        I'm not going to scroll back for the exact words Michael but you had said that....we know that Mortimer was on her doorstep at 12.55 because she saw Goldstein.' Words to that effect.
                        The clear implication is that Goldstein had independently and specifically said that he had walked past the club at 12.55.

                        The reason being, I said, was because if Goldstein hadn't given an independent and exact time for passing then what you would have, in effect, have been saying was....we know that Mrs Mortimer was on the step at 12.55 because she saw Goldstein pass at exactly that time and we know that he passed at that exact time because Mrs Mortimer said so.

                        And it looks like I was right.
                        Fanny said she saw the man with the black bag pass at around 12:55, she was at her door from 12:50 until 1am, Goldstein via his interpreter said he passed by the gates on Tuesday night. Is there a math problem there for you? He could ONLY have passed between 12:50 and 1 am because thats when Fanny was at her door continuously during that half hour. So......he passed the gates between 12:50 and 1, Fannys says 12:55. Its not a problem. There is a problem though... me having to repeat myself over and over again.
                        Michael Richards

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                        • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                          Fanny said she saw the man with the black bag pass at around 12:55, she was at her door from 12:50 until 1am, Goldstein via his interpreter said he passed by the gates on Tuesday night. Is there a math problem there for you? He could ONLY have passed between 12:50 and 1 am because thats when Fanny was at her door continuously during that half hour. So......he passed the gates between 12:50 and 1, Fannys says 12:55. Its not a problem. There is a problem though... me having to repeat myself over and over again.
                          What is an issue is that you seem quite happy to quote her being on her doorstep most of the time between 12.30 and 1.00 but you ignore what she apparently told the Evening News...that she came out of her house after hearing the Constable's tread (which she claimed was at 12.45 contradicting Smith himself) - which means that she was inside the house from 12.30 until 12.45. Then she stayed on her doorstep for 10 minutes and then went back inside until she came out again after hearing the noise from the yard - so she was inside from around 12.55 until say 1.05.

                          So according to the maths of what she said to the Evening Star, from 12.30 until 1.00 she spent around 10 minutes on her doorstep.

                          Why is this version ignored in favour of the other? Apart from convenience of course.
                          Regards

                          Sir Herlock Sholmes



                          “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

                          “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                            Fanny said she saw the man with the black bag pass at around 12:55, she was at her door from 12:50 until 1am, Goldstein via his interpreter said he passed by the gates on Tuesday night. Is there a math problem there for you? He could ONLY have passed between 12:50 and 1 am because thats when Fanny was at her door continuously during that half hour. So......he passed the gates between 12:50 and 1, Fannys says 12:55. Its not a problem. There is a problem though... me having to repeat myself over and over again.
                            Might, one day, gain some credibility if you could just get the night correct.

                            Early newspaper reports had her at her door for 10 minutes,all up.

                            Tautologist ...... one who repeats themselves,twice
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                            • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                              I'd say that it certainly does preclude that. She supposedly heard Smith at just before 12.45. So you would be suggesting that she had been out and gone back in again between 12.30 and say 12.43/4? Is it really likely that she'd have gone in and out over such a short space of time?

                              She also said that she'd heard Smith around 10 minutes after he himself said that he'd passed. So who was the likeliest to have been correct? A woman who might not even have owned a clock or a Constable on a regulated beat! I asked earlier if Smith had entered the street the same way that Diemschutz did (yes, my terrible sense of direction and geography) because if he did then he'd have passed the Baker's shop and seen the same clock that Louis did. Therefore it's likeliest that she came out of her house at around 12.35, stood for 10 minutes and then went back inside at 12.45 (missing Schwartz. BS man and pipe man episode) It would also mean that her 5 or 6 minutes was out by 10 minutes.

                              Either way she spends no more than 10 minutes on her doorstep from 12.30 until 1.00.

                              I don't see Fanny Mortimer as a very reliable witness.
                              Fanny outside: 12:35-12:45

                              Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                              What is an issue is that you seem quite happy to quote her being on her doorstep most of the time between 12.30 and 1.00 but you ignore what she apparently told the Evening News...that she came out of her house after hearing the Constable's tread (which she claimed was at 12.45 contradicting Smith himself) - which means that she was inside the house from 12.30 until 12.45. Then she stayed on her doorstep for 10 minutes and then went back inside until she came out again after hearing the noise from the yard - so she was inside from around 12.55 until say 1.05.

                              So according to the maths of what she said to the Evening Star, from 12.30 until 1.00 she spent around 10 minutes on her doorstep.

                              Why is this version ignored in favour of the other? Apart from convenience of course.
                              Fanny outside: 12:45-12:55

                              I don't see Herlock Sholmes as a very reliable investigator.
                              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

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                              • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                                Fanny outside: 12:35-12:45



                                Fanny outside: 12:45-12:55

                                I don't see Herlock Sholmes as a very reliable investigator.
                                I think you’re missing Herlock’s point, which is not that both intervals are true, but that there are differing and conflicting statements. So the idea that the FM was on her doorstep for 30 minutes and would not have missed anything is false.

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