McCarthy to Lechmere

[The Rookie Detective]

Good day to you all



May i begin by apologizing for beginning yet another link


Please know that my intentions are genuine and so i urge you to read on, as i believe i may have uncovered something new and to be honest, i need all your help to try and validate my theory.

Okay, so as you may have sen on my previous topic, i believed i had found a link between MJK's landlord, John McCarthy and Charles Lechmere, through Lechmere's boarder in 1881, namely Ellen McCarthy


Now i may not be the most competent or detectives, but i do have a good understanding of Genealogy. I have therefore tried to look at this from a Genealogical perspective.


And this is what i have found thus far.


Ellen McCarthy boarded with Charles Lechmere in 1881 at 20 James St. She is a 'widow' and has 2 children, James Alfred and Ellen Catherine.


Ellen's maiden name was Lyons and she married a carpenter called Daniel McCarthy in 1862.


I have a copy of their daughter Ellen Catherine's baptism record in 1865


At the time they were living at 14 Christian street, running south from Cable St & located near to the junction with Pinchin St and the road adjacent to James Street.
Christian St was also directly parallel to Berner Street to the west.



Their son James Alfred remains a bit of a mystery


So i have Ellen McCarthy in 1865 in Christian St and in 1881 with Charles Lechmere


I wanted to bridge the gap so i looked in the 1871 census..


and so here's the part that i need help and confirmation with...


I believe i have found Ellen McCarthy in 1871 living with her daughter Ellen Catherine and another son called John (who i think i have found a death record for and so would explain his absence from the 1881 census)

However, her other son James Alfred is not listed.


If it is the same Ellen, then it is made interesting by the fact that she is a widow living at 9 Palmers Folly as an 'unfortunate'


Or another word for a Prostitute


I checked Palmers Folly and found it comprised of many brothels and surprisingly my research took me directly to a link posted on this very casebook over a decade ago which looked at the local prostitutes in the east end taken from the 1881 census.

On this link, Palmers Folly is listed BUT number 9 Palmers Folly isn't listed in 1881. Numbers 7 and 11 are, but no number 9.



So that would mean that if i have indeed found the same Ellen McCarthy living with Charles Lechmere in 1881, as a Prostitute in 1871. That would mean that Lechmere took in an unfortunate and her daughter.


The birth dates and places match, except for one anomaly


Ellen in 1871 is listed as being born in Ireland. In 1881 she is on the census as being born in Mile End.
With over 10 years experience as a Genealogist, i have come across countless contradictions in terms of birth ages and places of birth on many census returns and so this one anomaly isn't enough to convince me i am on the wrong track.



I may be wrong of course and the Ellen i have found in 1865 and 1881 may nOT be the same Ellen in 1871.


But her birth age and area are correct and her daughters name and age match.


Regardless my discovery must be worth a closer look at the very least.



Please feel free to take a look and hopefully we can work together on seeing whether i have found Charles Lechmere took in a Prostitute as a boarder.



ah and there's also that link i think i made between Ellen;s husband Daniel McCarthy and MJKs Landlord John McCarthy. But that;s for another thread of course.



Thoughts, theories and open discussion on this please




TRD

[Fisherman]

I´ll throw a little something back at you. Ellen McCarthy´s daughter carried her mothers name and was listed as 16 at the time of the 1881 census. Then, in September of 1885, a 19-year old Ellen McCarthy is listed as a prostitute having received treatment for syphilis in the infirmary registers. At that time, she lives in Flower and Dean Street.

[The Rookie Detective]

I´ll throw a little something back at you. Ellen McCarthy´s daughter carried her mothers name and was listed as 16 at the time of the 1881 census. Then, in September of 1885, a 19-year old Ellen McCarthy is listed as a prostitute having received treatment for syphilis in the infirmary registers. At that time, she lives in Flower and Dean Street.

Fisherman, that is a brilliant observation.

The age and name matches.

So essentially, if the Ellen McCarthy you refer to in 1885 being treated for an STD, is the same Ellen McCarthy (junior) who is the daughter of the Ellen McCarthy boarding with Charles Lechmere, then there may be a hint of motive there.

As we know, Lechmere moved for some reason shortly before the killings began.

If the prostitute Ellen i discovered in 1871 living with her daugther n Palmers Follyis the same woman living with Lechmere in 181 and then the daughter then catches an STD, it makes me wonder if this was the reason why Lechmere moved.


The Ellen McCarthy boarding with Lechmere is listed as a Charwoman (Cleaner) but of course, she wouldn't have been listed as an 'Unfortunate' (Prostitue) if she was boarding at someone else's house.

I know the thread is weak at the moment, but it's there.


Ellen and her Husband Daniel livid in Christian st when their daughter Ellen was born and baptized in 1865. The proximity of Christian St to Pinchin St, Cable Street and Berner St is rather telling.


With respect, you have believed Lechmere was JTR for a while and i believe you are on the right track.


Lechmere's mother was a horse flesh dealer at the time of the murders and Lechmere lived next door to a man who made Ginger Beer for a living. The ripper made a specific reference to Ginger beer bottles.

Lechmere also lost his namesake and son Charles Allen Lechmere just days before his wife Elizabeth gave birth to a daughter.

I can't escape the feeling that Lechmere was the ripper at this stage.

For me, if the Ellen boarding with Lechmere was the same woman i have uncovered in 1871 living as a prostitute, and the 19 year old Ellen you mention in 1885 being treated for an STD is the16 year old daughter of Ellen who BOTH lived with Lechmere in 1881, then could if be that the McCarthy women were the spark for Lechmere to begin his spree of killings?


I have Genealogical experience of over 10 years and i know in my bones that this all fits. It may be open to scrutiny but i think it speaks for itself the implications of proving that Lechmere boarded a woman who had worked as a prostitute!



I have scoured the censuses, birth, marriage and death records and various other online tools and at the moment it fits.



Let's look at this properly and try and flush it out to either disprove or prove i have found the missing piece.



TRD

[MrBarnett]

This is fascinating! Right up my strasse.

I will consider it in depth in due course, but I feel I must point out that although the word ‘lodger’ was originally entered against Ellen’s name in 1881, it was then crossed out and replaced with ‘head’. Hers was a separate household from that of CAL.

[MrBarnett]

TRD,

Did you not read my ginger beer post? There wasn’t a ginger beer manufacturer living next door to Lechmere in 1887. It’s a small point, and might actually support your case. I’ll start another thread to tell you why (;-) not really).

If you want input from others, you should acknowledge what they provide or there will no point in their contributing.

Gary

[MrBarnett]

TRD,

Did you not read my ginger beer post? There wasn’t a ginger beer manufacturer living next door to Lechmere in 1887. It’s a small point, and might actually support your case. I’ll start another thread to tell you why (;-) not really).

If you want input from others, you should acknowledge what they provide or there will no point in their contributing.

Gary

In 1887, 18, James Street was unoccupied, but there was a ginger beer factory and shop at no. 2. Perhaps Hostler left a few empties behind at no. 18.

[The Rookie Detective]

So here's a to do list...



Find Ellen Lyons in 1861 BEFORE she married Daniel McCarthy in 1862


If we can find Ellen Lyons living in Christian Street or within yards of where Lechmere himself grew up, that may enhance the theory a little.

It's going way off piste of course but then i find that trying to think outside the box is the best way to the the bigger more accurate picture.


Ellen had another son called James Alfred McCarthy who i believe joined the navy and left the country. But i cant find him in 1871 which is frustrating. It may indicate that he was living elsewhere in 1871 as a 9 year old boy. He appears with hi smother and sister in 1881 living art the Lechmere's in James street

Seeing as James has to be living somewhere in 1871 and he is not with his mother and sister then it may indicate that he was living with his father Daniel, who may have still been alive despite Ellen stating she was a widow.
We also need to find Daniel McCarthy the Carpenter in 1861 and bizarrely to prove he actually die or whether he and Ellen separated.

On balance it seems that after her husband died, Ellen becaame destitute and fell into the life of prostitution. That is only if the Ellen in 1871 is in fact the same woman.




So t summarize. If the widowed prostitute i found living with her daughter Ellen in Palmers Folly in 1871 is the SAME Ellen McCarthy widow living with her daughter and son at the Lechmere's, then it is proof that Lechmere boarded a prostitute and her 2 children, one of which may have been treated for an STD as stated by Fisherman.


Of course, on the flip side, if we can prove that they are DIFFERENT widowed Ellen McCarthy,s with the same age and children (except for James Alfred who is absent in 1871) then the theory is dead in the water and we can move on.


Did Lechmere unknowingly allow a former prostitute into his dwelling at 20 James Street? was he deceived by Ellen McCarthy?


Was her husband Daniel McCarthy related to MJK's Landlord John McCarthy?


If Lechmere was the ripper, did he choose Millers Court not because it was personal against MJK, but because he wanted to get back at the McCarthy's?


John McCarthy was a dodgy character to say the least and so if he was related to Ellen's husband Daniel, could he have been the middle man who helped arrange for Ellen McCarthy to board with Lechmere?


Did Lechmere have a connection with Ellen McCarthy or her daughter?


Did Lechmere kill MJK at John McCarthy's property o make a statement?


And if so, was the Pinchin Street torso a statement as the body was dumped within yards of Lechmere's mum's old house when she was a Horse Flesh Dealer.



If of course, the Ellen McCarthy prostitute is NOT the same woman who boarded with Lechmere, then this is all completely wrong and the thread is dead.



If i have proven that the seemingly insignificant Ellen McCarthy living with Lechmere is 1881 was actually a prostitute or formerly so, then that would make a direct link between Lechmere and a prostitute who had the same (married) name as the Landlord who owned the property where MJK was killed.

Pretty thin, but there is definitely something there.


Certainly more of a connection than talking about missed rent payments.



I need help with this so i need all your brilliant minds to either prove or disprove my theory.



TRD

[The Rookie Detective]

TRD,

Did you not read my ginger beer post? There wasn’t a ginger beer manufacturer living next door to Lechmere in 1887. It’s a small point, and might actually support your case. I’ll start another thread to tell you why (;-) not really).

If you want input from others, you should acknowledge what they provide or there will no point in their contributing.

Gary

You're absolutely right, i can only apologize is i have come across as not acknowledging others contribution, it certainly isn't my intent. I appreciate everyone's input and i respect all of you for your collective minds. It is my belief that if we put all our minds together, not to agree of course, but to try and work from the same page so to speak, then we could achieve greater things.

It's the finer details that will add credence to this case.


The author of the letter may have not meant anything by referencing a ginger beer bottle, but i find this detail rather too specific to make a point about. He could have just said a 'bottle' but a 'ginger beer' bottle is almost teasing us with a clue.


JTR may have thought he was clever and practically untouchable at the time. But the census records, and official documentation may prove his undoing over time.

I remain optimistic.


And of course, respectful of ALL feedback.


I don't mind being proved wrong, i almost enjoy it as it helps to flush out ALL ideas and theories.


It must be said that initially i was very anti Lechmere as a suspect, but every time i try to move away from him, he draws me back in.


And let's face it, most serial killer's greatest achievement is not just to be remembered, but to be known.



The fact that we are still talking about the case after all this time is as though history is beckoning for the case to be solved.


TRD

[The Rookie Detective]

In 1887, 18, James Street was unoccupied, but there was a ginger beer factory and shop at no. 2. Perhaps Hostler left a few empties behind at no. 18.

It's little details like this that add credence to theories.

It may be nothing but the fact it may be something means it's worth consideration.


Brilliant stuff



TRD

[MrBarnett]

TRD,

Initially I got the impression that you had established the family connection between Ellen McCarthy and John McCarthy of Dorset Street. Is that the case?

The name McCarthy was quite common in St George’s. William Crossingham’s wife, Margaret (ńee Sullivan) had a relationship, and two children, with a thug named Jeremiah McCarthy who lived at various addresses around the Highway and Cable Street.

Lyons was also a common Irish Cockney name in the area. Maggie Sullivan had a pal called Ellen Lyons with whom she was convicted of street robbery. Possibly too young to be your EL, though.

Do you agree that Ellen Mc was the head of a separate household at 20, James Street in 1871 and was not living with CAL?

Gary

[Herlock Sholmes]

My apologies to RKD for taking a side step here but it’s only one quick question due to the fact that I’ve been away for quite some time and I may have missed something.

Were there any further discoveries about the Charles Cross who ran someone over with his cart? Do we know if it was Lechmere or is it still an unknown?

Thanks all.

[MrBarnett]

My apologies to RKD for taking a side step here but it’s only one quick question due to the fact that I’ve been away for quite some time and I may have missed something.

Were there any further discoveries about the Charles Cross who ran someone over with his cart? Do we know if it was Lechmere or is it still an unknown?

Thanks all.

Still unknown, Mike. Some effort was put into trying to find an alternative candidate, but there didn’t seem to be one.

The location of the incident was what most intrigued me, being in Islington a few streets away from John Harrison’s knackers yards in Belle Isle.

[The Rookie Detective]

TRD,

Initially I got the impression that you had established the family connection between Ellen McCarthy and John McCarthy of Dorset Street. Is that the case?

The name McCarthy was quite common in St George’s. William Crossingham’s wife, Margaret (ńee Sullivan) had a relationship, and two children, with a thug named Jeremiah McCarthy who lived at various addresses around the Highway and Cable Street.

Lyons was also a common Irish Cockney name in the area. Maggie Sullivan had a pal called Ellen Lyons with whom she was convicted of street robbery. Possibly too young to be your EL, though.

Do you agree that Ellen Mc was the head of a separate household at 20, James Street in 1871 and was not living with CAL?

Gary

yes I agree that Ellen McCarthy was living as the Head of her own household. Although the original did say Lodger and it seems that it ha been updated to ‘head’ later by a different hand. In a strange way it may strengthen the theory that the word Lodger is mentioned at all. The alteration is subtle but also makes it stand out. If it just said ‘head’ then it wouldn’t have stood out.

regarding the family connection, I believed I had found a direct family connection between Daniel McCarthy, Ellen’s husband but that isn’t conclusive without others input. I’d say 99% but as we know, if it’s not 100% then it’s not proven so to speak.


i find it interesting that you mention that Lyons was a common ‘Irish’ cockney name. That again strengthens my theory that the Ellen McCarthy at 20 James St is the same Ellen McCarthy living as an ‘unfortunate’ in 1871.

I say this because the Ellen McCarthy living at 20 James St in 1881 is stated as being born in Mile End.
however she IS DEFINITELY the same Ellen McCarthy who married Daniel McCarthy in 1862.

In other words, her maiden name was LYONS and of that’s a common Irish name, it matches the fact that the 1871 Ellen I found is stated as Irish.

This makes it more likely she wasn’t born in MileEnd at all but was in fact Irish.

again, this needs corroboration


getting closer


TRD

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

This is fascinating! Right up my strasse.

Indeed. I'm curious to see if anything develops out of this one. Could make for an interesting thread.

[MrBarnett]

Ellen was living at 11, Palmers Folly in 1871, wasn’t she?

And she wasn’t the only unfortunate in the household, there was another, Elizabeth Gill, and a visiting sailor. So it seems to have been a typical Bluegate Fields ‘bad house’.