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  • #16
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

    Still unknown, Mike. Some effort was put into trying to find an alternative candidate, but there didn’t seem to be one.

    The location of the incident was what most intrigued me, being in Islington a few streets away from John Harrison’s knackers yards in Belle Isle.


    Ok thanks Gary
    Regards

    Herlock




    “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
    “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
    “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
    “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
    “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

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    • #17
      Ellen’s sister, Margaret, was also living at 11, PF in 1871, and her place of birth was given specifically as Cork, which would tie in with John McCarthy’s family. And Margaret’s son, Thomas, was also there, aged 8.

      Now there’s a name to conjure with - Tommy McCarthy.


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      • #18
        I knew this investigation would be my cup of tea.

        This is from Adair’s Maryport Advertiser 26th January, 1866.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
          Ellen was living at 11, Palmers Folly in 1871, wasn’t she?

          And she wasn’t the only unfortunate in the household, there was another, Elizabeth Gill, and a visiting sailor. So it seems to have been a typical Bluegate Fields ‘bad house’.
          Yes this indeed proves she was living as a prostitute, I thought it was No.9 but it could be 11.

          Now if this Ellen McCarthy is the same Ellen McCarthy living in same dwelling as Lechmere 10 years later, then that could be a very key piece of new data


          TRD

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
            Ellen’s sister, Margaret, was also living at 11, PF in 1871, and her place of birth was given specifically as Cork, which would tie in with John McCarthy’s family. And Margaret’s son, Thomas, was also there, aged 8.

            Now there’s a name to conjure with - Tommy McCarthy.

            This is great because if her sister Margaret was from specifically from Cork, then that does tie in better with John McCarthy.

            I know there are seemingly countless numbers of McCarthys living in and around the area at the time but Cork adds to the credence of the theory.


            The key is that Ellen is listed as Widowed, meaning she was married and had mother name prior.

            If this Ellen living in a “bad house” was the same Ellen Lyons who married Daniel McCarthy and then lodged/head with Lechmere, then we have a direct link between Lechmere and a prostitute.

            may be completely barking up wrong tree but it doesn’t feel that way yet.

            worth pursuing I think


            TRD

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
              I knew this investigation would be my cup of tea.

              This is from Adair’s Maryport Advertiser 26th January, 1866.

              okay so this is an incredibly fascinating find you have made.

              So this is interesting for several reasons.

              and it could help add to the theory or help to destroy it completely. Both outcomes are good because at least this thread can be flushed out.

              Okay so based on my theory of this Ellen McCarthy being the woman who lived at 20 James St as Lechmere did, the timings of this newspaper report you have found help to narrow it right down to just a few months.

              So Ellen Lyons married Daniel McCarthy in 1862

              They had a daughter called Ellen McCarthy who was born in April 1865.

              The paper report is dated January 1866

              That gives only a maximum of an 8 month window between Ellen (junior) being born and baptised with BOTH her parents living at 14 Christian St up to the point when the Ellen McCarthy who committed the assault in this newspaper report living in Palmers Folly

              Would 8 months be enough time for Ellen to have moved from Christian St in 1865 to Palmers Folly in January 1866?

              the key to this is to look at the prostitute Ellen McCarthys youngest son, a boy called John who is 3 in 1871.

              What’s curious is that this assault took place in 1866, but Ellen had another son called John in either 1867 or 1868.

              this would mean that the John’s father was alive in 1868, but Ellen was a committed the assault in 1866.

              she is a widow in 1871 which means her husband must have died between 1867 - 1871.

              Unless he died earlier and Ellen’s children had different fathers but she kept her married name.

              So we know that we have an Ellen McCarthy who has a daughter Ellen and a husband Daniel in 1865 living in Christian St

              we now have an Ellen McCarthy living in Palmers Folly in 1866 committing a violent assault and the same woman still living in Palmers Folly in 1871, having a son called John while she was living as a prostitute.

              we then have the same Ellen McCarthy from 1865 with her daughter Ellen but as a Widow and living at same dwelling as Lechmere.

              we also have a Possible Cork link with the 1871 Ellen.

              So the key may be to see Johns birth certificate to check address and father and then compare to a possible death certificate I think I have found to see if it matches.

              This would then explain why there’s no John at in 1881

              another way to try and look at this would be to see if we can find the same Ellen McCarthy who committed the assault in 1866 living in Palmers Folly BEFORE 1865. That would mean they are different women as the Ellen McCarthy living at Lechmeres was at Christian St in 1865 with her husband Daniel.

              It would either strengthen the theory or destroy it.


              either is preferable to not knowing


              TRD


              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                I knew this investigation would be my cup of tea.

                This is from Adair’s Maryport Advertiser 26th January, 1866.

                ‘Mr Barnett’ this is a great find


                had an intensive read of the article again and it’s interesting that the victim had her NOSE BITTEN OFF.

                I instantly thought of the previously discussed topic of wounds inflicted on MJK

                MJK had her nose removed.


                If the Ellen McCarthy mentioned in the 1866 assault where she bit someone’s nose off is the same Ellen at 20 James St in 1881, then a big aggressive domineering prostitute Dwelling in the same dwelling as Lechmere may have added to the melting pot.

                If this was the same Ellen, then she would have been quite a figure and character.

                Imagine if something happened at 20 James Street between 1881 -1884, between the Lechmeres and Ellen McCarthy and her daughter. Her daughter gets an STD and the finger gets pointed at one of the Lechmeres. That would perhaps explain why Charles Lechmere moved and the killings began.
                was he deceived? Did he catch an STD? Did one of his sons?

                Did Charles Lechmere seem revenge, and was enraged by Ellen McCarthy and her daughter.

                Did he have a passive aggressive nature that was sent over the edge by the McCarthys?

                a hunger to literally expose prostitutes for what they really were.

                heartless

                gutless

                This would explain the wounds inflicted on the victims.

                the ripper felt rage but also betrayed and needed to get back at them for the past.


                that may also explain why the ripper chose John McCarthys property to obliterate MJK

                It wasn’t about MJK for him, it was a statement on McCarthys turf so to speak.

                If the Ellen McCarthy at 20 James St was connected with John McCarthy landlord, then that seems more likely a motive


                all conjecture and mostly unprovable

                but a layered motive for a killer


                TRD

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                  Ellen’s sister, Margaret, was also living at 11, PF in 1871, and her place of birth was given specifically as Cork, which would tie in with John McCarthy’s family. And Margaret’s son, Thomas, was also there, aged 8.
                  As you are doubt aware,both McCarthy (Mac Carthaigh) and Lyons (O Liathain ) originated in Munster, with an emphasis on County Cork for the Mac Cartaighs .

                  There were also the Norman invaders named Lyons.
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by DJA View Post

                    As you are doubt aware,both McCarthy (Mac Carthaigh) and Lyons (O Liathain ) originated in Munster, with an emphasis on County Cork for the Mac Cartaighs .

                    There were also the Norman invaders named Lyons.
                    Thanks, Dave. I wasn’t aware of that.

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                    • #25
                      Ironically Lyons is a Jewish name that shows up regularly here.
                      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by DJA View Post
                        Ironically Lyons is a Jewish name that shows up regularly here.
                        Yes, it wasn’t until I started to research the East End Irish that I became aware that it was a common name amongst them.



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                        • #27
                          Barnett is another.
                          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by DJA View Post
                            Barnett is another.
                            Not so common among the Irish, more so amongst the Jewish.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                              Not so common among the Irish, more so amongst the Jewish.
                              And a few English, my family included.

                              McCarthy isn’t the easiest name to track down in the East End.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Jewish Barnetts seem to be Polish/Prussian?

                                Lot of McCarthy's in the Oz thoroughbred racing industry.

                                I'm Scoti .... Irish/Scottish. Irish history fascinates me.
                                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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