Is Jack someone we have never heard of?

[Fisherman]

True but I don't think that's what Rainbow meant.

Letīs see, John. I donīt think itīs too far off the mark myself. In a sense, the charm of the legend depends much on the phantom qualities of the killer.

[John Wheat]

Letīs see, John. I donīt think itīs too far off the mark myself. In a sense, the charm of the legend depends much on the phantom qualities of the killer.

Okay I'll let people conclude what they like from that.

[Harry D]

True but I don't think that's what Rainbow meant.

Fisherman should know.

[Fisherman]

Fisherman should know.

Views are like *******s, Harry, everybody has one. Some ARE one, even.

[spyglass]

Hi,
Of course it's likely, however I'm currently still working on an theory or at least an idea in my head.
I'm of the thinking that the murderer was already arrested or at least he's identity was known just after the Eddowes murder.
I believe that Kelly was something else but the police wanted it to be seen as a Ripper murder.
This would cause a huge headache if the killer was brought to trial.

Regards

[Patrick S]

Hi,
Of course it's likely, however I'm currently still working on an theory or at least an idea in my head.
I'm of the thinking that the murderer was already arrested or at least he's identity was known just after the Eddowes murder.

Are you theorizing that the killer (i.e. JtR) was arrested based on some assumptions or do you have a "suspect" that you have documentation of his having been arrested after Eddowes?

I believe that Kelly was something else but the police wanted it to be seen as a Ripper murder.

Do you feel that they "staged" it as such (i.e. tampered with the evidence, the crime scene, etc.) or just presented it to the press/public as a Ripper crime?

This would cause a huge headache if the killer was brought to trial.

So you feel that JtR was arrested after Eddowes and was incarcerated when Miller's Court happened. Thus, Kelly wasn't a Ripper victim (Joe Barnett? Hutchinson?). What would cause the headache? The fact that the 'Ripper' that was in custody hadn't killed Kelly? Does this mean they didn't realize the man they had was the Ripper when Kelly was killed, realizing it only after they'd made Miller's Court out to be a Ripper crime?

Regards

Interesting post. A few questions above. Thanks in advance.

[jerryd]

Franklin Sydney King

I wanted to post this up here in addition to the JTR forums, since some do not frequent that site from here. Think there is anything to this guy with the locations being perfect, at least for the Mitre Square and Alice McKenzie murders?

In another thread I have mentioned David King and Son. I knew I had done some research on him so I went back and found it on the McKenzie thread on the JTR forum. I did some more research today on this company and I found some very surprising facts that really fit right into the Mitre Square murder as well as the McKenzie murder.

David S King & Son were builders. There offices were in Billiter Square which is minutes away from Mitre Square. On September 17th, 1888 Franklin Sydney King (son and business partner of David King) filed for bankruptcy. On September 29, 1888, I found what I believe to be a hearing of creditors for that bankruptcy. That evening Stride and Eddowes were murdered.

Franklin S. King has some other interesting locations attached to him. To start, in 1877 and 1881 he is listed at 5, Mitre Street. The back of this location overlooks the spot where Eddowes was killed. It butts up to the yard where the gate was near her body. I'm pretty sure he wasn't living there in 1888, however, on September 29th, 1877, he signed a 60 year lease with the Richard Beddoes Charity for the property at 4,5,6,7 and 8 King Street. This property had frontage on King Street and Heneage Lane. It was steps away from St. James Place. I will include a map below to show the access to Mitre Square this property had. Also, he is listed with a property on Goulston Street and one in Croydon. We know that it was outside the door of his warehouse in Castle Alley that Alice McKenzie was murdered. With the fact his business was listed on Goulston Street, his property must have gone all the way through from Goulston to Castle Alley. It would be a few doors north of his door on Goulston Street that the apron was dropped.

I believe he died in 1892. I can't get into the genealogy records to double check right now. Could it be that our man really was right under their noses the whole time. On King Street, he would be able to time the cops beats perfectly by observing Watkins walk past his property. He would even know if the beat were reversed, as it was that night. On Goulston Street, he could time the Met police beats. He was also very close to Houndsditch, St James Place, etc. that he may have been wandering in his neighborhood when he stumbled upon Catherine Eddowes. Or, if he killed Stride, he may have happened upon Eddowes on his way back to his King Street or Billiter Street bolthole. For that matter, his Goulston Street warehouse would have been a good bolthole.

As a builder/contractor he would have access to saws. He might have even been helping with the construction of the new police building at Whitehall as a sub-contractor. I am still looking into that. The Alice McKenzie murder has always troubled me with the timings. I thought there was no way she was killed right under the nose of Walter Andrews and he didn't see it happen. Well, when your door is literally a step away from the crime, and your can run through to the other side (Goulston Street) and off to King Street or Billiter Street, I can now see a possibility there.


Blue Arrow= #5 Mitre Street
Black Arrow= 4,5,6,7 and 8 King Street

[Pierre]

I wanted to post this up here in addition to the JTR forums, since some do not frequent that site from here. Think there is anything to this guy with the locations being perfect, at least for the Mitre Square and Alice McKenzie murders?

In another thread I have mentioned David King and Son. I knew I had done some research on him so I went back and found it on the McKenzie thread on the JTR forum. I did some more research today on this company and I found some very surprising facts that really fit right into the Mitre Square murder as well as the McKenzie murder.

David S King & Son were builders. There offices were in Billiter Square which is minutes away from Mitre Square. On September 17th, 1888 Franklin Sydney King (son and business partner of David King) filed for bankruptcy. On September 29, 1888, I found what I believe to be a hearing of creditors for that bankruptcy. That evening Stride and Eddowes were murdered.

Franklin S. King has some other interesting locations attached to him. To start, in 1877 and 1881 he is listed at 5, Mitre Street. The back of this location overlooks the spot where Eddowes was killed. It butts up to the yard where the gate was near her body. I'm pretty sure he wasn't living there in 1888, however, on September 29th, 1877, he signed a 60 year lease with the Richard Beddoes Charity for the property at 4,5,6,7 and 8 King Street. This property had frontage on King Street and Heneage Lane. It was steps away from St. James Place. I will include a map below to show the access to Mitre Square this property had. Also, he is listed with a property on Goulston Street and one in Croydon. We know that it was outside the door of his warehouse in Castle Alley that Alice McKenzie was murdered. With the fact his business was listed on Goulston Street, his property must have gone all the way through from Goulston to Castle Alley. It would be a few doors north of his door on Goulston Street that the apron was dropped.

I believe he died in 1892. I can't get into the genealogy records to double check right now. Could it be that our man really was right under their noses the whole time. On King Street, he would be able to time the cops beats perfectly by observing Watkins walk past his property. He would even know if the beat were reversed, as it was that night. On Goulston Street, he could time the Met police beats. He was also very close to Houndsditch, St James Place, etc. that he may have been wandering in his neighborhood when he stumbled upon Catherine Eddowes. Or, if he killed Stride, he may have happened upon Eddowes on his way back to his King Street or Billiter Street bolthole. For that matter, his Goulston Street warehouse would have been a good bolthole.

As a builder/contractor he would have access to saws. He might have even been helping with the construction of the new police building at Whitehall as a sub-contractor. I am still looking into that. The Alice McKenzie murder has always troubled me with the timings. I thought there was no way she was killed right under the nose of Walter Andrews and he didn't see it happen. Well, when your door is literally a step away from the crime, and your can run through to the other side (Goulston Street) and off to King Street or Billiter Street, I can now see a possibility there.


Blue Arrow= #5 Mitre Street
Black Arrow= 4,5,6,7 and 8 King Street

There were a lot of people working or living in the area of that map. Anyone of them could get himself a knife or a saw.

[spyglass]

Interesting post. A few questions above. Thanks in advance.

Hi,
The idea about Kelly not being the victim but someone else is obviously not new, but I have been formalising a different spin on it.
Let's just say I'm not convinced that it was Kelly, and that Maxwell's sighting has been ruled out to easily by a lot of people.
As for who the killer was, I really don't have anyone particular in mind, but if the killer was known and or caught after the double event than I guess some of the well known suspects could rise closer to the top of the list.
Kosminski in my mind would be more likely the killer of the first four and not kelly, whilst the main argument against Tumblety was he was in jail during the Kelly murder ( I think that's right )
I don't think Barnett the killer of anyone.
As I said before, the so called witnesses of identifying the killer at the seaside home were all related to the night of the double event.

Regards

[spyglass]

Interesting post. A few questions above. Thanks in advance.

Hi again,
As for my different spin on the Kelly murder and without giving to much away yet, I will just point to a few things.

1. The five week delay between the last murder
2.The murder being in doors
3. Body mutilated beyond all recognision
4.No organs missing ( except the heart....maybe )
5. Dr Bond coming to the case inbetween murders 4 and 5.
And No....I don't think Bond the killer.

Regards.

[jerryd]

There were a lot of people working or living in the area of that map. Anyone of them could get himself a knife or a saw.

Did they also own property on Goulston Street a few doors from where the apron was dropped and backed to Castle Alley where another murder occurred in July of 1889 outside the door?

[dantheman]

Did they also own property on Goulston Street a few doors from where the apron was dropped and backed to Castle Alley where another murder occurred in July of 1889 outside the door?

Yes, and he probably lived on Flower & Dean St. We do have some interesting suspects though.

[jerryd]

Yes, and he probably lived on Flower & Dean St. We do have some interesting suspects though.

Hi Dan,

Yes? Who is it?

[dantheman]

Hi Dan,

Yes? Who is it?

The yes was in response to the original question of "Is Jack someone we have never heard of?". I don't think we have any suspects that lived on Flower & Dean St, at least none that I'm aware of. I replied on the wrong quote earlier, forgive me I'm a newbie. lol

[jerryd]

The yes was in response to the original question of "Is Jack someone we have never heard of?". I don't think we have any suspects that lived on Flower & Dean St, at least none that I'm aware of. I replied on the wrong quote earlier, forgive me I'm a newbie. lol

No problem Dan. I thought you knew something that I wasn't aware of is all. John Kelly was staying at 55, Flower and Dean.