Is Jack someone we have never heard of?

[dantheman]

No problem Dan. I thought you knew something that I wasn't aware of is all. John Kelly was staying at 55, Flower and Dean.

Do you consider John Kelly a person of interest of even a suspect?

Best regards

Dan

[jerryd]

Do you consider John Kelly a person of interest of even a suspect?

Best regards

Dan

I don't consider him a suspect personally. The story he told is a bit strange, though.

[Phil Carter]

I don't consider him a suspect personally. The story he told is a bit strange, though.

Hello jerryd,

Like you..I cannot label the man "a suspect". ..but his story, and that in combination with Wilkinson, has more holes in it than a Swiss Cheese infested with termites.

The single most obvious one is the time he was "told" of Eddowes being locked up. Over an hour before it had happened. And..even if the "messenger"..an elderly lady.. was infact there an hour later.. she would have to fly like the wind to make the time believable.

This..combined with the most inane piece of police work possible. .. the non confirmation of the "Kelly/Wilkinson story of receiving the info about Eddowes' locking up".. makes just this part of the testimony highly suspicious. However..there is a lot more.

You see..if the police knew that the Kelly story was out of sync by at least an hour..they would have double checked the story. Why?...

Simply because.. when Eddowes was arrested, the police asked those around if anybody knew the woman. According to the police..nobody knew her.
Yet the old lady who reported to Wilkinson and Kelly MUST have known Eddowes in order to know where to find Kelly to tell him of her arrest. Even more so..the old lady must have known exactly where to find Kelly in order to tell him. Therefore..having seen and witnessed the event.. She hotfoots it to Kelly to tell him.
Over an hour BEFORE Eddowes gets arrested!

Given the situation..I think it more likely Kelly himself was on the scene of the arrest. It makes more sense than an old lady running across thst part of town.

Kelly and Eddowes were not "known individuals of the East End" by a long shot. They were like hundreds or thousands of others in the same situation.

The story Kelly and Wilkinson give isn't just odd. It is full of lies.


Phil

[dantheman]

The story Kelly and Wilkinson give isn't just odd. It is full of lies.


Phil

Very interesting, I need to read about Wilkinson & Kelly again as its a bit confusing. Other than them being the ripper, any other reasons why they would've lied to police?

Thanks,

Dan

[Joshua Rogan]

What puzzles me is where he got a replacement pair of boots from...unless he was barefooted all weekend?

[Wickerman]

What puzzles me is where he got a replacement pair of boots from...unless he was barefooted all weekend?

People did go barefoot Joshua.

[Wickerman]

The single most obvious one is the time he was "told" of Eddowes being locked up. Over an hour before it had happened.
Phil

Hi Phil.
Hope you are well.

I thought I was familiar with this story but I don't recall this difference of an "hour" you keep referring to.

The last time I looked over this argument the belief on Casebook was that John Kelly mentioned Kate being arrested in the afternoon, yet it was well established that she was arrested at 8:30 pm, at night.

What was not known by the members here who thought this suspicious was, that the late Victorians regularly termed 7:00-8:00-9:00 at night as the "afternoon". Whereas today we have largely limited the meaning of the term.

So the only mystery on that score was the modern student of the case who was not familiar with L.V.P. terminology.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Wickerman,

" . . . the late Victorians regularly termed 7:00-8:00-9:00 at night as the "afternoon."

Do you have anything to substantiate this?

Regards,

Simon

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil.
Hope you are well.

I thought I was familiar with this story but I don't recall this difference of an "hour" you keep referring to.

The last time I looked over this argument the belief on Casebook was that John Kelly mentioned Kate being arrested in the afternoon, yet it was well established that she was arrested at 8:30 pm, at night.

What was not known by the members here who thought this suspicious was, that the late Victorians regularly termed 7:00-8:00-9:00 at night as the "afternoon". Whereas today we have largely limited the meaning of the term.

So the only mystery on that score was the modern student of the case who was not familiar with L.V.P. terminology.

Hello Jon,

Not great but not dead just yet ☺ Hope you and yours are well? ☺

The hour.

At the Eddowes inquest..Wilkinson..the lodging house man gave the written witness statement.. (inquest report Corporation of London No. 135)

"When Kelly came in on Staurday night between half past 7or 8 I asked him, "Where's Kate?" He said "I have heard she's been locked up"

0dd that. She wasn't locked up until 8.45.

Even more intriguing Kelly's written inquest statement includes. .

"I heard she had been locked up at Bishopsgate. I was told by two women. I made sure she would be out on Sunday morning".

However...there is more...

The Times newspaper of 5th October states Kelly saying. .
"Heard that she had been locked up on Saturday night at Bishopsgate. He was told by a woman that she had seen the deceased in Houndsditch with two policemen. He could not say what time it was when he heard that statement".

Thats just the start of the mess.
Kelly simply must be lying. He cannot have heard of the arrest of Eddowes over an hour before it happened.


Phil

[Joshua Rogan]

Kelly simply must be lying. He cannot have heard of the arrest of Eddowes over an hour before it happened.

I agree there are a few issues with Kelly's testimony, but I'm not sure you can conclude that he must be lying, since he never mentioned a time himself. It was
Fred Wilkinson, the lodging house deputy, who is the source for the time discrepancy. Isn't it more likely that Fred was mistaken about the time rather than Kelly could predict the future?

I can easily envisage a scenario where Kelly returns to the lodging house around 7:30-8:00 pm and speaks to Wilkinson. He sits in the busy kitchen to await Kate's arrival, but doesn't actually ask for a single bed until an hour or so later, after a woman tells him Kate has been locked up for the night. It isn't too much of a stretch to think that these two conversations became conflated in Wilkinson's mind.

[Joshua Rogan]

People did go barefoot Joshua.

I don't doubt it Jon, but it seems like a serious handicap for a labourer. If I had been interviewing Kelly that would be the first question I'd ask.......hmmm, maybe that's why I never became a journalist.

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

" . . . the late Victorians regularly termed 7:00-8:00-9:00 at night as the "afternoon."

Do you have anything to substantiate this?

Regards,

Simon

Actually yes Simon.

The newspapers of the time provide many examples where afternoon is used for what we today would commonly call evening.
Here are a few I posted last year.

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=360113&postcount=6

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon,

Thank you. That's fascinating.

Regards,

Simon

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Thank you. That's fascinating.

Regards,

Simon

You're very welcome.
Here's a bunch that all refer to - Eight o'clock in the afternoon.












The Victorians used forenoon and afternoon like we use a.m. and p.m. today.
It demonstrates how easy it is to misinterpret something we read because meanings & terms have changed over the decades.
So, on that point at least, John Kelly does not appear to have been telling lies.

[Wickerman]

Oh, and for what it's worth, Bowyer has also been called a liar because he told the press said he last saw Kelly talking to a man on Wednesday night, then at the inquest he said he last saw her Wednesday afternoon.

Night & afternoon was the same, no need to call him a liar either.