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Reginald Saunderson, November 1894

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  • rjpalmer
    replied
    a couple of familiar names at Harry Read's inquest. Dr. Houchin, Coroner Baxter...

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  • rjpalmer
    replied
    It's like one long parade of misery, all traceable to the illicit love affairs of J. C. Read

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  • Debra A
    replied
    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
    Here's an interesting one from the Dundee Evening Telegraph, 12 August 1893.

    I wonder if the noiseless reference could account for Mary Langdon Down mentioning that Saunderson may have been wearing slipper when he absented himself. Maybe she was specifically asked about this?

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  • Debra A
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

    Am I reading this right?
    Eliza had known Saunderson for about a year, since he and his father stayed with her. But she saw him in May, presumably without his father or he wouldn't have asked to borrow 2 shillings. In June his father stayed with her again, and cautioned her about him.
    And finally she saw him the night of the murder.
    I think the timeline was that Saunderson stayed with his father at Eliza Ahrens house in May 1894, his father was there again in June 1894. Saunderson then showed up at her house again in November 1894, alone, around the time of the murder of Augusta Dawes. His father lived usually in St Moritz Switzerland.

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  • Joshua Rogan
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra A View Post

    That seems to be the difference. Mary Langdon Down was asked about absences without permission where Eliza Arhens talked of a visit by Saunderson with his father. There's no further explanation of the caution:

    Eliza Ahrens
    I live at 7 Saint Alban's Place Haymarket and have known the prisoner about 12 months. He stayed at my house for a few days about a year ago. He was with his father. I saw him about May last I believe. He called to ask me to lend him 2 shillings and I did so. I last saw him on Sunday night 25th November about 10pm at my house. He asked for a room and I told him I was unable to give him one then. He said his brother would arrive from India next day and he would want one. I told him I should most likely be able to let his brother have one the following day but I thought he had better go back to the Constitutional and tell his brother I could not accommodate him.
    Prisoner wanted a room for himself for that night.
    He gave me no reason why he was in town or why he wanted a room that night. There was a light in the hall where I saw him. He was dressed in dark clothes and I believe he had on an overcoat but I wont be positive. He was with me about 5 minutes. He asked me how far it was to Tottenham Court Road + how far it was to Euston. He was much about the same as I had seen him previously.
    He was very pale and said he had been very ill and had had rheumatic fever.


    Crossed [cross examined]

    I had received a caution respecting prisoner. It was in June I believe when his father stayed in my house. I received the caution from his father that it was one of the reasons I did not want him to stay at my house. Prisoner looked ill.

    Am I reading this right?
    Eliza had known Saunderson for about a year, since he and his father stayed with her. But she saw him in May, presumably without his father or he wouldn't have asked to borrow 2 shillings. In June his father stayed with her again, and cautioned her about him.
    And finally she saw him the night of the murder.

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  • rjpalmer
    replied
    Here's an interesting one from the Dundee Evening Telegraph, 12 August 1893.

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  • rjpalmer
    replied
    Originally posted by jerryd View Post
    Thanks for the info on this guy, RJ. I thought I'd heard James Canham Reade's name before in regard to a suspect. It came from a letter Forbes Winslow received from a lady in Australia. Her "Jack" suspect was interested in Reade's trial.
    Thanks, Jerry. I've often wondered about Forbes Winslow's Australian, but, for whatever reason, the James Canham Read connection never dawned on me. It's interesting.

    One can certainly go "down the rabbit hole" looking into Read. Another odd angle is that there had already been a 'Ripper' scare down in Essex in the months before the murder of Florence Dennis.
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    This is evidently a reference to the mysterious death of Emma Hunt on 20 May 1893, in Rochford, roughly 3 miles north of Southend. Her throat was savagely cut and the police believed it was a suicide (with good reason) but the coroner's jury ruled it a homicide and tried to put the blame on Alfred Hazell, the teenager who had discovered her body. (He was later released). A few weeks later, in June, a woman named Johanna Driscoll (who had East End connections) was found with her throat slashed in Aveley. The suspect was someone nicknamed "Soldier," but he was never located that I am aware of. My apologies if this is old news; much of it must be, but it's a strange set of circumstances. Debra, Stewart Evans, Mike Covell, and Chris Scott discuss it here:

    http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=10697
    Last edited by rjpalmer; 09-14-2019, 05:18 PM.

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  • rjpalmer
    replied
    Thanks for that clarification, Debs. So it appears that Sanderson was allowed to leave Eastcote on occasion, but only if his father acted as a chaperone/keeper.

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  • Debra A
    replied
    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

    Mrs. Down's testimony seems to be elsewhere contradicted by the testimony of a woman named Mrs. Alviens (elsewhere given as Arkens) who lived in The Haymarket. Alviens appears to be claiming that Saunderson had stayed with her, evidently more than once, in 1894, prior to the murder of Augusta Dawes in November. She also makes a strange reference to being cautioned about Saunderson in June 1894--five months before his escape and murder of Dawes.

    If Saunderson was so outwardly harmless and inoffensive, why was his father warning Mrs. Alviens about lodging him for the night back in June 1894 (the same month as the Southend murder)? And how could he have been staying with her anyway, if he hadn't been out of the institution since 1892? It's all a bit of a mystery. (Most probably Mrs. Down was only referring to absences without leave, and there were other occasions between 1888-1894, when leave had been granted).

    That seems to be the difference. Mary Langdon Down was asked about absences without permission where Eliza Arhens talked of a visit by Saunderson with his father. There's no further explanation of the caution:

    Eliza Ahrens
    I live at 7 Saint Alban's Place Haymarket and have known the prisoner about 12 months. He stayed at my house for a few days about a year ago. He was with his father. I saw him about May last I believe. He called to ask me to lend him 2 shillings and I did so. I last saw him on Sunday night 25th November about 10pm at my house. He asked for a room and I told him I was unable to give him one then. He said his brother would arrive from India next day and he would want one. I told him I should most likely be able to let his brother have one the following day but I thought he had better go back to the Constitutional and tell his brother I could not accommodate him.
    Prisoner wanted a room for himself for that night.
    He gave me no reason why he was in town or why he wanted a room that night. There was a light in the hall where I saw him. He was dressed in dark clothes and I believe he had on an overcoat but I wont be positive. He was with me about 5 minutes. He asked me how far it was to Tottenham Court Road + how far it was to Euston. He was much about the same as I had seen him previously.
    He was very pale and said he had been very ill and had had rheumatic fever.


    Crossed [cross examined]

    I had received a caution respecting prisoner. It was in June I believe when his father stayed in my house. I received the caution from his father that it was one of the reasons I did not want him to stay at my house. Prisoner looked ill.


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  • Debra A
    replied
    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
    In response to Herlock's question about Saunderson's whereabouts in June 1894 (the time of the Southend murder), there seems to be wiggling room for any would-be conspiracy theorist.


    (emphasis added)

    Mrs. Down's testimony seems to be elsewhere contradicted by the testimony of a woman named Mrs. Alviens (elsewhere given as Arkens) who lived in The Haymarket. Alviens appears to be claiming that Saunderson had stayed with her, evidently more than once, in 1894, prior to the murder of Augusta Dawes in November. She also makes a strange reference to being cautioned about Saunderson in June 1894--five months before his escape and murder of Dawes.

    If Saunderson was so outwardly harmless and inoffensive, why was his father warning Mrs. Alviens about lodging him for the night back in June 1894 (the same month as the Southend murder)? And how could he have been staying with her anyway, if he hadn't been out of the institution since 1892? It's all a bit of a mystery. (Most probably Mrs. Down was only referring to absences without leave, and there were other occasions between 1888-1894, when leave had been granted).

    Prior to the murder, Saunderson's father had evidently come up with a scheme to have the lad shipped off to Canada in order to take-up farming, hence he was given access to gardening tools, including the knife he later used to murder Augusta Dawes.

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    That's interesting, I'll look up Arkens testimony in the court records. I noticed yesterday that Mary Landon Down was recalled so there may have been some discrepancy in her evidence that needed clarifying and perhaps this is what it was.
    There is mention in the file that it had been arranged by his father that Saunderson be sent to the colonies and was learning gardening.
    Last edited by Debra A; 09-14-2019, 08:43 AM.

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  • jerryd
    replied
    And here is another piece from the same publication on Saunderson.

    http://streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.com/2011/08/ [see "How to Beat your Dadd at Chess]

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  • jerryd
    replied
    Found this on Reginald Saunderson. This guy was a chess player while locked up in Broadmoor Asylum.

    http://streathambrixtonchess.blogspo...whos-next.html

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  • jerryd
    replied
    The Doctor mentioned in this article is a Doctor Blair from Australia


    Wichita Daily Times
    18 August 1910


    Letter from Melbourne.


    "You challenge is more than justified in "Jack the Ripper." You indeed frightened him away for he sailed away in a ship called the Murrumbidgee, working his passage to Melbourne, arriving here in the latter part of 1889."
    This is after the last of the "Jack the Ripper" crimes, Dr. Winslow points out. Then follows the man's history:
    "He is a native of Melbourne, Victoria. He was educated at the Scotch college here. The late Dr. ______ was a great friend of the family, and it was from him he gained his surgical knowledge, the doctor taking him to post mortems. When he arrived in Melbourne he married Miss _____, who lived only a little over a year.
    His wife, the letter continues, died from natural causes. It was shortly after her death that Dr. Forbes Winslow's correspondent met "Jack". He told her he had had a hard time in London and he was then buying the papers that contained the fullest reports of crimes. She asked him why he bought these papers and the letter proceeds:
    Alleged Confession.


    "He said "I want to see how things are in London." Then he began reading the trial of a man named James Canham Reade. This man married and deserted several women and finally killed one, for which crime he was hanged. When he had finished reading, I said, "What a fearful fellow!" He said, "Yes." I then said, "What about Jack the Ripper?" He said, "Strange, those crimes ceased once I left England.""
    This remark astounded her, especially as she knew he had been living in that part of London where the crimes had been committed. She tried, however, to banish the thought from her mind, but several times afterward she referred to it, and at last he told her he did commit the murders. She asked him for an explanation and he first said revenge and afterward that research had made him guilty. The letter continued:
    "I wrote to Scotland Yard telling them all. Sir Robert Anderson answered my letter, but as I had told them all I had to say, I did not write again till last year, but I have heard nothing from them. It is my opinion they all bungled this matter up and do not like owning up to it.
    "I even gave him up in Melbourne in 1894. The police examined him. He told them he was in Melbourne in 1890, so they found this was true, and without asking him where he was in 1880 they let him go. He laughed and said, "See what fools they are. I am the real man they are searching the earth for, but they take me in one door and let me out of the other." I even gave one detective a letter of his, but he only laughed. I asked him to have the writing compared with that at home signed "Jack the Ripper", but he did nothing. Now I have burned his letter long since."
    One Coincidence.


    The writer goes on to give Dr. Winslow the man's name, to say that he is still called "Jack" by his relatives and friends and that at the present time he is in South Africa. She suggests a means of getting into communication with him in order to obtain a specimen of his handwriting again.
    The writer then mentions that he often used to attend St. Paul's in London - and that he always carried an ugly sheath knife in his belt.
    "What I regret most," she adds, "is that any one should think that that poor, demented Irish student should have been guilty of this man's crimes. I did not know till this week that any one was charged with those crimes, or I should have made a great deal more noise than I have done, knowing as I do the real culprit. I am certain as I am writing that he is your man."
    Dr. Winslow, commenting on the letter said that he knew "Jack the Ripper" had left England and that he had neither been captured nor committed suicide. He intends to follow up the present clue, and if Scotland Yard desires any information he will at once place every fact and name of which he is possession at their disposal.





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  • jerryd
    replied
    Thanks for the info on this guy, RJ. I thought I'd heard James Canham Reade's name before in regard to a suspect. It came from a letter Forbes Winslow received from a lady in Australia. Her "Jack" suspect was interested in Reade's trial. [the part I have highlighted below]

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  • rjpalmer
    replied
    St. Alban's Place, the location of the lodging house, looks more like it's in Clerkenwell, rather than Haymarket. I don't know. Either way, it's a considerable distance from Kensington High Street, let alone Eastcote. It's also interesting to note that Saunderson was wearing two hats on the night of the murder. A hard-shell bowler type hat, and underneath this a cap with a peak. A clever little b-----d, I must say.

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