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Reginald Saunderson, November 1894

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    thanks hs. a tad young
    Ed Kemper was 15 when he murdered his first victims. Granted, most young murderers seem to target family members or classmates.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Debra A View Post
      I have a copy of the CRIM 1 file on this case if anyone wants anything posting or looking up.
      Thanks, Debs. Did you get any sense that Swanson or anyone else had tried to establish Saunderson's whereabouts prior to December 1888? (The month he was sent to Eastcote).







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      • #18
        Originally posted by Harry D View Post

        Ed Kemper was 15 when he murdered his first victims. Granted, most young murderers seem to target family members or classmates.
        yup which is what he did-his granparents. and only started his serial killing spree (with true MO/sig) years later. somewhat more sophisticated with ruse being involved and victimology more defined-young women. that being said he ended his killing with his mother (and friend) and turned himself in. which just goes to show you how diverse and odd a serial killer can be in there victimology, time frame, MO/sig, and reason for stopping!!
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
          Thanks, Debs. Did you get any sense that Swanson or anyone else had tried to establish Saunderson's whereabouts prior to December 1888? (The month he was sent to Eastcote).
          Or the reason he was sent there?

          Comment


          • #20
            No offense intended, but I am not particularly interested in whether modern observers believe Saunderson is a credible suspect. I am only interested in whether Swanson and/or Bond was willing to entertain or test the possibility.

            It seems unlikely that Swanson's cameo in this case is a mere coincidence. Or Bond's. Or it is also coincidental that similar interest was shown by the Met in several other post-1888 cases, such as those of Sadler and Grainger--and possibly even T. N. Cream (briefly) and Fred Deeming (who I believe was briefly looked into, but dismissed).

            Most 'Ripperologists' seem to believe that Scotland Yard was looking for someone who fit the descriptions supplied by Schwartz, Lawende, etc., or were only looking for a local man, aged 23-30, or were looking for a Jew.

            But it appears that Scotland Yard was abundantly willing to toss these 'profiles' into the trash, if need be, and look altogether elsewhere. In other words, that their minds were far more open, uneasy, and uncertain than what is usually portrayed by the modern cognoscenti.

            If they were willing to entertain, however briefly, the possibility that the Ripper was a bearded, partially paralyzed Pole pushing 60 (Ostrog), or an outwardly crazed youth from Kennington (Cutbush), or a respectable, good-looking middle-aged gent from Blackheath (Druitt), or a crazed teenager living near Kingston on Thames (Saunderson), then it seems rather obvious that they gave far less weight to witness descriptions, or the "local man theory," than we see in modern commentators and theorists, including the generally cautious Phil Sugden.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

              Thanks, Debs. Did you get any sense that Swanson or anyone else had tried to establish Saunderson's whereabouts prior to December 1888? (The month he was sent to Eastcote).





              Roger and Joshua
              The statements from police officers of different divisions seem to cover only the discovery of the body and capture of Saunderson in Ireland. Nothing from Swanson. The letter is briefly touched on by Inspector John Smith without mentioning any details.
              Saunderson's father gives brief details of the boy's history in his statement, but in response to what questions is not made known. His father details how his son had received a head injury as a young child and had been treated by doctors until the age of 11 and that he was of 'weak intellect.' His father says he was sent away to school but they returned him home, afterwards he was sent to live with a clergyman 'for some years.' The clergyman also returned him home. He remained at home for 'a few months' but then 'in consequence of his extraordinary behaviour' his father consulted different doctors who advised him to see Dr Langdon Down as he couldn't keep Reginald at home any longer This he obviously did as he was sent to Langdon Down's establishment at Eastcote. It sounds from this as though the strange behaviour may have been shortly before his Dec 1888 detainment. although it is difficult to determine exactly when or if Reginald may have been in St Moritz with his father the time running up to being sent to Eastcote.
              It was also disclosed that he had absented himself from the asylum several times and for several days at a time between 1888 and 1894. I am sure police would have checked the date of those absences against similar crimes.
              If police had their suspicions, which seem reasonable enough, then they didn't give anything away at the police court.

              Bond was involved as a police expert witness in a lot of other similar cases so it doesn't come as a surprise that his name appears in this one. I did notice though his usual trick of not agreeing completely with the doctor performing the post mortem with him. Bond was more confident in his own ability to determine the direction of the cut, the position of the assailant and whether they were left or right handed. Dr Townsend was much more cautious.

              None of them give anything away as far as suspicions of any other crimes.
              Last edited by Debra A; 09-12-2019, 06:24 PM.
              ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

              I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

              Comment


              • #22
                Thanks for that, Debs. As you say, it is an interesting case in many respects.

                Scotland Yard was always very tight-lipped, as you note, and I am forced to speculate, but with The Sun's expos of Cutbush still being in recent memory, it occurs to me that someone might have thought it prudent to have Swanson watch the case on behalf of the police, just to reassure the public that "the Yard" was fully cognizant of this and similar murders. Thus, if another Ripper flap ever hit Fleet Street, they could justifiably point out that such murders were always closely investigated.

                Another interesting aspect of the case, at least to me, is that it was reported that, prior to the murder, Saunderson had become morbidly obsessed with news coverage of the Florence Dennis murder in Southend (June 1894) and the impending execution of the man convicted of the crime, James Read. In other words, that Saunderson's murder of Dawes was somehow 'imitative.' This lead Dr. Forbes Winslow to write a letter to the press, with the rather modern notion of "homicidal epidemics"

                Click image for larger version

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                  No offense intended, but I am not particularly interested in whether modern observers believe Saunderson is a credible suspect. I am only interested in whether Swanson and/or Bond was willing to entertain or test the possibility.

                  It seems unlikely that Swanson's cameo in this case is a mere coincidence. Or Bond's. Or it is also coincidental that similar interest was shown by the Met in several other post-1888 cases, such as those of Sadler and Grainger--and possibly even T. N. Cream (briefly) and Fred Deeming (who I believe was briefly looked into, but dismissed).

                  Most 'Ripperologists' seem to believe that Scotland Yard was looking for someone who fit the descriptions supplied by Schwartz, Lawende, etc., or were only looking for a local man, aged 23-30, or were looking for a Jew.

                  But it appears that Scotland Yard was abundantly willing to toss these 'profiles' into the trash, if need be, and look altogether elsewhere. In other words, that their minds were far more open, uneasy, and uncertain than what is usually portrayed by the modern cognoscenti.

                  If they were willing to entertain, however briefly, the possibility that the Ripper was a bearded, partially paralyzed Pole pushing 60 (Ostrog), or an outwardly crazed youth from Kennington (Cutbush), or a respectable, good-looking middle-aged gent from Blackheath (Druitt), or a crazed teenager living near Kingston on Thames (Saunderson), then it seems rather obvious that they gave far less weight to witness descriptions, or the "local man theory," than we see in modern commentators and theorists, including the generally cautious Phil Sugden.
                  I think that line in bold goes with my line of thinking, they didnt have a workable profile, because they knew very little. I think Abberline, prior to the bizarre comments about Chapman years later, was the only one to admit they didn't know squat really.

                  Michael Richards

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                    Thanks for that, Debs. As you say, it is an interesting case in many respects.

                    Scotland Yard was always very tight-lipped, as you note, and I am forced to speculate, but with The Sun's expos of Cutbush still being in recent memory, it occurs to me that someone might have thought it prudent to have Swanson watch the case on behalf of the police, just to reassure the public that "the Yard" was fully cognizant of this and similar murders. Thus, if another Ripper flap ever hit Fleet Street, they could justifiably point out that such murders were always closely investigated.

                    Another interesting aspect of the case, at least to me, is that it was reported that, prior to the murder, Saunderson had become morbidly obsessed with news coverage of the Florence Dennis murder in Southend (June 1894) and the impending execution of the man convicted of the crime, James Read. In other words, that Saunderson's murder of Dawes was somehow 'imitative.' This lead Dr. Forbes Winslow to write a letter to the press, with the rather modern notion of "homicidal epidemics"

                    Click image for larger version

Name:	Winslow 1.JPG
Views:	94
Size:	81.9 KB
ID:	721783 Click image for larger version

Name:	Winslow 2.JPG
Views:	90
Size:	82.2 KB
ID:	721784

                    That's really interesting. I am always torn between believing Forbes Winslow because of the vast experience he must have had of different types of cases and perhaps his wild desire to crowd please and be wise after the event. The thing that strikes me is that morbidly obsessed is kind of similar to Macnaghten's wild desire of morbid imitation phrase concerning Cutbush, in 1894.
                    ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                    I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Do we know where Saunderson was in June 94? I just wondered if his morbid obsession with the Florence Dennis murder might hint at an involvement and a sense of guilt that innocent man about to be executed?

                      I know.....a bit of over-active imagination.
                      Regards

                      Herlock






                      "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

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                      • #26

                        Cardiff Times

                        December 15, 1894

                        **************


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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                          Do we know where Saunderson was in June 94? I just wondered if his morbid obsession with the Florence Dennis murder might hint at an involvement and a sense of guilt that innocent man about to be executed?

                          I know.....a bit of over-active imagination.
                          Mary Langdon Down -
                          "He absented himself without leave 3 or 4 times from 1888 to 1892. 1892 was the last time he went away.
                          We used to communicate with the police when he went away and enquire amongst his friends, sometimes his friends informed us.
                          On 24th June 1892 he went away"
                          ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                          I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Nice graphic, Howard. Thanks.

                            Herlock - James Canham Read, the man convicted of killing Florence Dennis in Southend-On-Sea, was an East Ender. He lived in Stepney and Mile End, and worked as a cashier and clerk for some company in the Royal Albert Dock. It was a case of the "old, old story": he was married with kids, but seduced Dennis, got her pregnant, and abandoned her. She hadn't realized that he was married and threatened to expose him; he responded by luring her to a lonely field outside of Southend, where he shot her in the head.

                            The cad Read had his supporters, and they argued that the case against him had not been proved, but he was nonetheless found guilty and executed in December 1894. The publicity is what is said to have driven our man Saunderson over the edge, but why this would lead him to travel several miles into Central London and slit a poor woman's throat is anyone's guess. I haven't read deeply enough into the Dennis case to form an opinion, but I did notice an account claiming that another young woman had been murdered in Southend some years earlier, supposedly near the same spot, and the case hadn't been solved--which may or may not lead credence to another nutter living down in that neck-of-the-woods.

                            Someone has posted a lot of information on James Canham Read on ancestry.com, for those with subscriptions. If you're looking for a Ripper suspect, Herlock, wrap an astrakhan collar around his throat and he's not a bit fit-up for Hutchinson's toff.

                            Click image for larger version  Name:	J. C. Read.JPG Views:	0 Size:	28.6 KB ID:	721842
                            Last edited by rjpalmer; 09-13-2019, 06:25 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                              Nice graphic, Howard. Thanks.

                              Herlock - James Canham Read, the man convicted of killing Florence Dennis in Southend-On-Sea, was an East Ender. He lived in Stepney and Mile End, and worked as a cashier and clerk for some company in the Royal Albert Dock. It was a case of the "old, old story": he was married with kids, but seduced Dennis, got her pregnant, and abandoned her. She hadn't realized that he was married and threatened to expose him; he responded by luring her to a lonely field outside of Southend, where he shot her in the head.

                              The cad Read had his supporters, and they argued that the case against him had not been proved, but he was nonetheless found guilty and executed in December 1894. The publicity is what is said to have driven our man Saunderson over the edge, but why this would lead him to travel several miles into Central London and slit a poor woman's throat is anyone's guess. I haven't read deeply enough into the Dennis case to form an opinion, but I did notice an account claiming that another young woman had been murdered in Southend some years earlier, supposedly near the same spot, and the case hadn't been solved--which may or may not lead credence to another nutter living down in that neck-of-the-woods.

                              Someone has posted a lot of information on James Canham Read on ancestry.com, for those with subscriptions. If you're looking for a Ripper suspect, Herlock, wrap an astrakhan collar around his throat and he's not a bit fit-up for Hutchinson's toff.

                              Click image for larger version Name:	J. C. Read.JPG Views:	0 Size:	28.6 KB ID:	721842
                              pleasant looking individual-surly look and all
                              "Is all that we see or seem
                              but a dream within a dream?"

                              -Edgar Allan Poe


                              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                              -Frederick G. Abberline

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                He looks a bit different in this one!

                                Click image for larger version

Name:	j c read.JPG
Views:	86
Size:	29.5 KB
ID:	721849
                                ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                                I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                                Comment

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