Henry/ Harry Buckley

[MrBarnett]

I can’t say I favour Buckley as the Ripper on the basis of the limited evidence provided. However, I find Billy Maher, one of the next generation of Dorset Street ‘shopmen’, of considerable interest in the Austin case. But that’s another story...

To return to Buckley - using FMP, I could only find three adult Patrick Buckleys in London on the 1891 census:

An Islington blacksmith,

A Deptford steam engine maker/fitter,

A Fulham Gas Stoker.

Geographically, the Islington man is obviously a better fit for a Euston Road pick-up, but the occupation and address of the Fulham candidate is intriguing to say the least. A gas stoker living in Stanley Road: the same occupation and street as Adrianus Morgenstern in 1877.

I think it’s worth a trip to the London Hospital archives to establish the victim’s occupation and home address. I can’t do it for a week or two, but if no one else gets to it first, I’ll pop along there the week after next.

Incidentally, by 1901, PM the gas stoker was living in Kensington.

[MrBarnett]

Here’s another version of the Manning incident:

[MrBarnett]

Probably this from the Daily News 10 Nov;

"Just before eleven Mrs. M'Carthy with her son went to pay her customary visit for the purpose of collecting the day's rent. Young McCarthy appears to have first sent a man named Bower (sic) to the house"

I have a smidgen of a suspicion that perhaps Dew refreshed his memory using reports like this one, hence him recalling a youth running to the station.

There’s a version of that where the son enters the ‘hall’ of Kelly’s room, discovers her body on the floor and says something along the lines of, ‘Oh, mother, don’t look’.

Personally, I’m sceptical about the involvement of Mrs McCarthy or her son.

Fred Wensley certainly kept a scrapbook of news reports of the cases he’d been involved in. I agree with you that Dew probably refreshed (possibly created) his memories from news reports.

[Joshua Rogan]

I’d be very interested in the source for it being ‘Mrs McCarthy’ and her son who called for Kelly’s rent.

Probably this from the Daily News 10 Nov;

"Just before eleven Mrs. M'Carthy with her son went to pay her customary visit for the purpose of collecting the day's rent. Young McCarthy appears to have first sent a man named Bower (sic) to the house"

I have a smidgen of a suspicion that perhaps Dew refreshed his memory using reports like this one, hence him recalling a youth running to the station.

[MrBarnett]

I’d be very interested in the source for it being ‘Mrs McCarthy’ and her son who called for Kelly’s rent.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi,
I did not mean literally guard the room. but certainly be local , so you could observe the traffic in and out of the court whilst awaiting police, as for Mrs McCarthy and son collecting rents, maybe it was more likely to produce results rather then a heavy handed type,
Regards Richard,

It still seems a little pointless to me, but fair enough.
Do you think the Mrs McCarthy referred to was John's wife, or mother?
Incidentally, the ELA says of Mrs Cox that she "did not sleep a wink during the whole night, and was still awake when the man called for the rent."
Not conclusive, but more indicative of Bowyer I'd have thought than a 14 year old youth.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I did not mean literally guard the room. but certainly be local , so you could observe the traffic in and out of the court whilst awaiting police, as for Mrs McCarthy and son collecting rents, maybe it was more likely to produce results rather then a heavy handed type,
Regards Richard,

[Joshua Rogan]

According to Dew it was a youth that rushed into the police station, and he also interviewed the youth back at Millers court, when he had regained some composure , it appears that Mrs McCarthy and son were collecting rents that morning, could not make Kelly hear, and that's when Bowyer was sent , as it had been reported by some residents that Kelly appeared not to be around as was normal.
We know that Bowyer was not a well man the shock of seeing the body first, would have been overpowering, and I cannot imagine he being sent to the police station hotfoot, surely his son would have been more fleet of foot, and fits in with Dew's description.
Dew also recalled McCarthy arriving at the station.
It has been stated that McCarthy told the errand person [ whoever he was] not to talk to anyone about this en-route. so I would say he would have made provisions that no resident went anywhere near Room 13, until the police arrived. that to me is obvious.
Regards Richard.

It's clear from their inquest testimony an press statements that both McCarthy and Bowyer went to the police station, whatever their state of health. I'm not sure why you would prefer Dew's 50-year-old recollections.
The room was locked, nobody was going to wander in there accidentally. Setting someone to guard the room would only draw attention to it. If I was told to guard a locked room for no apparent reason, I'd probably take a peek through the window...

[Joshua Rogan]

So, another little odd thing. The Clerkenwell Court calendar gives his age as 36.

When Mary Cox was asked what she thought the age of the man was she said ‘six-and-thirty’. Which has always seemed a little odd to me, in that when guessing an age people tend to say ‘about 35’ or ‘between 35 - 40’. It also looks to be the correct age for Buckley.

It's worth noting that the Echo has Cox saying the man was "about thirty-seven", the Morning Advertiser says "He appeared to be between 35 and 36", the PIP "I should think the age of the man I saw with the deceased was about five or six and thirty.", the St James' Gazette "The man she saw with the deceased was apparently about thirty five years of age", the Star "about 36" and the Times "he appeared to be between 35 and 36 years of age". All very similar estimates, but not as exact as some accounts would make it seem.

[MrBarnett]

Does anyone know where Steve McCarthy was in 1891? He wasn’t at 27, Dorset Street when the census was taken. By then, Jack McCarthy was a man of some substance; I find it hard to believe that his son and heir attended a local board school, so perhaps he was at a boarding school somewhere. And perhaps that’s where he was in November, 1888. That seems more likely than that he was out collecting rents from prostitutes.

[richardnunweek]

According to Dew it was a youth that rushed into the police station, and he also interviewed the youth back at Millers court, when he had regained some composure , it appears that Mrs McCarthy and son were collecting rents that morning, could not make Kelly hear, and that's when Bowyer was sent , as it had been reported by some residents that Kelly appeared not to be around as was normal.
We know that Bowyer was not a well man the shock of seeing the body first, would have been overpowering, and I cannot imagine he being sent to the police station hotfoot, surely his son would have been more fleet of foot, and fits in with Dew's description.
Dew also recalled McCarthy arriving at the station.
It has been stated that McCarthy told the errand person [ whoever he was] not to talk to anyone about this en-route. so I would say he would have made provisions that no resident went anywhere near Room 13, until the police arrived. that to me is obvious.
Regards Richard.

[seanr]

Why would anyone need to stand guard?

I don't know but I guess you might not want people to accidentally walk in on such a sight.

I could understand the original point, as a parent you might not want your teenager to see that.

[seanr]

Isn't it the case that we can only definitely say that Kidney was living there at the time of her inquest? Before she died, Stride was living at 32 Flower & Dean Street.

Yeah, he gives his address as 38 Dorset Street at the inquest.

Kidney also states he saw on the Tuesday (the 25th of September) night in Commercial Street, on his way home from work. He states he had expected her home within half an hour of when he saw her in Commercial Street, but he ascertained she had been in and gone out again. I make the assumption he returned home after seeing her, in order to be able to expect her return over expecting her to be there when he eventually arrived home.
He later ascertained she had been in and gone out again, in the same half an hour he expected her home? - or did she enter the property at another time? - returning and leaving again speaks to coming back to collect something. Which in turn speaks to some relatively established home where property can be left.

The inquest was on the 1st of October. I know we're talking about a mobile population moving from lodging house to lodging house, but are we really confident Kidney had only just moved to 38 Dorset Street in the last day or so? - If he had changed address, mightn't he have been asked to clarify where they had shared a home?

Stride had only been at 32 Flower and Dean Street since Wednesday, I believe, which fits in with Kidney's testimony.

The coroner specifically asks Kidney if he had quarrelled with her on Thursday. I wonder if evidence had been provided prior to the inquest, that Kidney had been arguing with Stride?

[Joshua Rogan]

Why would anyone need to stand guard?

[MrBarnett]

I was thinking pretty much the same, Gary.

I assumed you were, Gareth.

I’m pleased seanr started this thread.