Why not McCarthy ?

[Abby Normal]

Hi all.
Abby asked me if I could post the Echo article from Nov. 14th mentioning Bowyer at the water tap and in the shop at 3am the morning of the murder.

This is the relevant section of the article:

[ATTACH]15106[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]15107[/ATTACH]

I also note it says he travelled alot. Wonder when he came into town... and when he left......Hmmmm

[Abby Normal]

There may have been something more personal. If he did kill MJK--and I think it's a remote possibility but a possibility non-the-less--I doubt it would just be for the back-rent.

Nah-he could have just received sexual favors for that.

[Abby Normal]

Hi all.
Abby asked me if I could post the Echo article from Nov. 14th mentioning Bowyer at the water tap and in the shop at 3am the morning of the murder.

This is the relevant section of the article:

[ATTACH]15106[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]15107[/ATTACH]

Thanks Debra!
I find that the direct quote from Bowyer saying he was there, as opposed to the paper just saying he was there, lends to its credence.

Also, very interesting that your research shows that he may have died in
1889. Do you know what month?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby



I agree. I'm also not sure what he would've had to gain by killing Kelly? It seems a little extreme to do it for the sake of a bit of back rent. He was a 'Big Man' in the locale - he had much more to lose than gain.



Do you know where that was from Abby? It sounds interesting. Of course, just because it was printed in a paper doesn't make it true - then again it was Bowyer who found Kelly.

Hi Sally, Chava
Debra pasted it a few posts up.

[Debra A]

Thankyou for that Deb's.

My snippet began with the Bowyer bit, the few lines which preceed it are missing.

I wasn't aware of Cox's description being now 'uncertain' "moustache not carroty, but dark".
I wonder where/when that belief surfaced.

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon.

As the first part of the same article deals with George Hutchinson coming forward with his description of A man and his dark moustache, it could be that is why the Echo claim the 'carroty' moustache description no longer applies?

However, the article also mentions that Bowyer has now given Abberline a description of a man he saw in the Court on Friday morning-it's tempting to think Bowyers description might also have described a man with a dark moustache, isn't it? We also have the description of a young, respectable looking, well dressed man with a dark moustache seen with MJK at around 11pm outside the Britannia -a description seemingly given to a press association representative by John McCarthy.

[Wickerman]

Thankyou for that Deb's.

My snippet began with the Bowyer bit, the few lines which preceed it are missing.

I wasn't aware of Cox's description being now 'uncertain' "moustache not carroty, but dark".
I wonder where/when that belief surfaced.

Regards, Jon S.

[Debra A]

Bowyer at the water tap

Hi all.
Abby asked me if I could post the Echo article from Nov. 14th mentioning Bowyer at the water tap and in the shop at 3am the morning of the murder.

This is the relevant section of the article:

[Sally]

There may have been something more personal. If he did kill MJK--and I think it's a remote possibility but a possibility non-the-less--I doubt it would just be for the back-rent.

Well of course - a possibility. If that were so, and it was a crime of passion, say - then he probably would've got away with with it. He was a slum landlord - who'd have snitched on him? Powerful man - people think twice before making enemies of such men.

[lynn cates]

bought

Hello Chava. Thanks

"If you were going to copycat the Ripper, all you'd need to do would be to cut the throat and make a few aimless passes with a knife in the abdominal area. The cops would have bought it I'm sure."

Indeed. And not a few modern investigators.

Cheers.
LC

[Chava]

I agree. I'm also not sure what he would've had to gain by killing Kelly? It seems a little extreme to do it for the sake of a bit of back rent. He was a 'Big Man' in the locale - he had much more to lose than gain.

There may have been something more personal. If he did kill MJK--and I think it's a remote possibility but a possibility non-the-less--I doubt it would just be for the back-rent.

[Sally]

Hi Abby

As for McCarthy being on the scene and being a suspect-I dont think so. he was a landlord who was married owned the shop right there and rented the rooms in the court out to prostitutes-would he really take the risk of killing in his own backyard? Could he really have held off so long?

I agree. I'm also not sure what he would've had to gain by killing Kelly? It seems a little extreme to do it for the sake of a bit of back rent. He was a 'Big Man' in the locale - he had much more to lose than gain.

Bowyer, in an article that Debra Arif found, is directly quoted in a newspaper saying he was in the court at approx 3:00am the night MK was murdered. I thought it was pretty significant find at the time, but for some reason it generated little interest.

Do you know where that was from Abby? It sounds interesting. Of course, just because it was printed in a paper doesn't make it true - then again it was Bowyer who found Kelly.

[Chava]

Bowyer, in an article that Debra Arif found, is directly quoted in a newspaper saying he was in the court at approx 3:00am the night MK was murdered. I thought it was pretty significant find at the time, but for some reason it generated little interest.

Hi Abby,

I think that's an extremely important point! I didn't know Bowyer was around at that time. Can you post a link to the article? Bowyer was never on my radar and now he is!

As to your point about the freedom of being in a room. I agree. But if it was a question of being able to...er...fully express yourself in a room, I suspect he would have picked up women who did have rooms. I don't know the figures but I imagine that a number of women had cribs and used them for the purposes of prostitution. He could simply have asked when he picked one up if she had somewhere completely private they could go. Like a room. If not, walk away from her and on to the next one. But he didn't. I think his record suggests he was more interested in the kind of woman he wanted than the circumstances where he killed her. The other 4 victims are very similar in age, physicality and circumstances. MJK is the only different one.

Of course, after 17 rousing choruses of 'Twas Only A Violet', even a saint would have wanted to kill MJK...

[Abby Normal]

Hi Lynn,

Yes, that was another point in the 'no' file. If you were going to copycat the Ripper, all you'd need to do would be to cut the throat and make a few aimless passes with a knife in the abdominal area. The cops would have bought it I'm sure. However the one thing that has always struck me about the MJK murder was the sheer hatred of it. It seems to me to be personal whereas the others don't. He tore that poor woman apart long after he needed to. And he didn't take her uterus either. He took her heart. That's why, even though Mr Blotchy is my current favourite for MJK and the others, I think there is an outside chance that MJK was a one-off and that her killer took advantage of the Ripper killings to make an end of her. And if that was the case, McCarthy was definitely on the scene. Lizzie Prater puts him at his store around 1.30 am.

Hi Chava
Blotchy is my favorite for all also. I cant help but think if the others were also killed in a private room they would have more mutilations like MK as the killer would have more time and safety. Plus there is the escalation factor that many serial killers exhibit.

As for McCarthy being on the scene and being a suspect-I dont think so. he was a landlord who was married owned the shop right there and rented the rooms in the court out to prostitutes-would he really take the risk of killing in his own backyard? Could he really have held off so long?

In terms of being on the scene and being more of a suspect I would point to Barnett and Bowyer. Barnett (if he was the killer) may have finally realized it was over between him and MK after visiting her that night-and it was her heart that was taken.

Bowyer, in an article that Debra Arif found, is directly quoted in a newspaper saying he was in the court at approx 3:00am the night MK was murdered. I thought it was pretty significant find at the time, but for some reason it generated little interest.

[Chava]

Hi Lynn,

Yes, that was another point in the 'no' file. If you were going to copycat the Ripper, all you'd need to do would be to cut the throat and make a few aimless passes with a knife in the abdominal area. The cops would have bought it I'm sure. However the one thing that has always struck me about the MJK murder was the sheer hatred of it. It seems to me to be personal whereas the others don't. He tore that poor woman apart long after he needed to. And he didn't take her uterus either. He took her heart. That's why, even though Mr Blotchy is my current favourite for MJK and the others, I think there is an outside chance that MJK was a one-off and that her killer took advantage of the Ripper killings to make an end of her. And if that was the case, McCarthy was definitely on the scene. Lizzie Prater puts him at his store around 1.30 am.

[lynn cates]

extensive damage

Hello Chava. This is much more plausible than casting about for why he killed the others.

But it would seem that, given he wished to kill "MJK," he would cut her throat like Liz; or, make a few perfunctory cuts in emulation of Polly?

Cheers.
LC